Ep. 13 The Game Changer For Your Mental Health... Mapping Your Nervous System

Unlocking the power behind understanding your different nervous system states is one of the biggest game changers for mental health, relationship wellness, and healing. Penney and I talk about our personal journeys with understanding our nervous system reactions and then dig deep into explaining the different nervous system states. The episode ends with tips on how to notice where you are at within regulation or reaction and how you can come back to states of calm.

If you want to explore these ideas in person you can join us for any of our in-person or online events where we break these concepts down even further. If you are listening to this the week it goes live you are just in time to join us on our women's retreat Aug 18-20th. You can learn more at ⁠www.hilltopwellness.net

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Ep. 13 The Game Changer For Your Mental Health... Mapping Your Nervous System

Janae: [00:00:00] Welcome to untangling relationships, a conversation between a counselor and a yoga teacher, a gen X-er and a millennial. And a mother and daughter join us as we explore the ins and outs of relationships with your hosts, Janae and penny. Hello and welcome. Hello.

Penney: We're going to talk about.

Your nervous system and mental

Janae: health. Yeah, a long time coming. We've been. I was talking about doing this episode for

Penney: Ohio kind of skirting around the edges and, I think some fear about doing it justice and creating, understanding around it.

Janae: Yeah, it's a really big topic. And also. Depending on what level of your.

Talking around it, it can be like really. Neuroscience heavy and things like that, which can get complicated. Fast. And also we're always still learning more and more about. The nervous system and. the way [00:01:00] the brain works and all of that kind of stuff. So. Yeah.

Penney: I love neuroscience. It's a definitely a passion of mine husband since becoming a counselor. So, I always appreciate understanding around it while also understanding.

Everybody has different levels of that.

Janae: Yeah. And learning to communicate those different levels can be. A challenge in and of itself. Sure.

All right. So our first question is what has been your journey of understanding your nervous system? So kind of starting at a more personal level. So. You want to go for that? Sure. I think for me, as I said, I really enjoy neuroscience and understanding emotions within the brain. I think my. My understanding originally started with Dan Siegel.

Penney: I moved into Bruce Perry. Uh, both. Leading, talking about neuroscience and mental health and, And really becoming more of [00:02:00] an understanding with VanDerKolk and the body keeps the score, which came out. Oh, what maybe 10 years ago? Uh, Oh, it seems like more recent than that, but it may be even have been longer than 10 years ago.

And then really having an opportunity to drive into more of that, looking into purchases, polyvagal theory, and how that works within internal family systems, which is really the theory. That I enjoy working with a great deal. So I would say probably the last five years, my understanding has increased.

Increased in increments along the way, but really coming to a very personal level, probably within the last five years of really understanding my own system and how that works. And. When my emotions are heightened and flooded and when I'm able to step into logic and when I'm not, and having a better understanding of the nervous system.

Janae: yeah. That makes sense. I would say. Similarly, I feel like there was. A little bit [00:03:00] of slowly bill understanding as. Like I remember you talking about, Like when you made those little macrame lizards with, um, Oh, yeah, kids, your play therapy kids way back in the day when we were all still living at home and talking about like the lizard brain and fight play and that kind of stuff.

But as far as. Like getting. Like you're saying on a more personal level. Of starting to map your own nervous system and figuring out. Your own triggers and. Where you are at with flooding and everything. I think that has, for me, Solely changed. And I've gotten a better understanding over the past, maybe three years. I know.

Back in 2019. When I started doing my trauma training for my yoga certification. There [00:04:00] was. A bit of talk around it that. and along with like attachment stuff. But. I don't think I started applying it to myself until more recently.

Penney: Yeah. It's interesting. Uh, I enjoy doing fact checks, write, check in with our understanding and what we know because to me, I always think back and think.

Wow. I wish I would've spent more time on the whole brain child and I wish I would've spent more time as a mom. Focused on neuroscience and. And the nervous system and how that works. With my own kids and. And then I have to check in with myself and realize that the information or the knowledge and the language, even that we have around the brain and around our emotions is so different.

than other families. And so really checking in on that shame of my personal journey is my personal journey. And I do look back at the research and [00:05:00] see, as the research has unfolded. My knowledge has unfolded, and I've been able to do that differently as a parent and as a clinician. And does just a human.

but always, Having room to understand. That our journey has definitely been different. Being a clinician. And raising children. That, that our conversations and words and all of that, it's been different when I remember. Uh, making comments about thinking errors when you guys were, I mean, really elementary school age.

And. What those were and how we do that differently when I'm sure that is not a normal part of conversations around other family tables. So I was in the nervous system, probably in the journey has been a journey, a family journey to. And part of our family culture, as knowledge is developed. And I mean, when did you read the body? Keeps the score? Probably just around the same time I did, right?

Janae: Yeah. I read it around 2018.

Penney: Yeah.

And my guess is, and you've read Dan Siegel stuff. Right. [00:06:00] Yeah. When you were still high school or just out of high school.

Janae: No around the similar time when I was doing all the trauma training stuff.

Penney: Yeah. Yeah. So conversations and books that, Ardent, not generally nor a normal repertoire, right. Uh, for people to read. It's interesting.

How different, our view of that is and how, and so I think that's some of the hesitation of doing this episode of do we present it the right way? Is our knowledge level somewhere in the middle? I think there's a lot of information. So it's how do you present it in a way that. That's good for everyone.

Janae: Yeah. And it's funny to look back on like, All of the ways that. You were either intentionally or unintentionally using that for parenting like the self-soothing and. Taking time and space to calm down before you came back to conversations and all kinds of things that. looking back, I'm like, oh [00:07:00] yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Why that worked or why we did that, or, you know, you talk about.

When Christopher was little carrying cotton balls for him to like rub along his face to self-sooth and things like that. It's just very interesting to link how. Whether those were natural instincts or red instincts or whatever. How those did end up playing out in. You're raising.

Penney: Yes and stuff. Yeah. I do think a lot of that is natural instincts. and as you learn.

And I tell parents and parenting training. When there, I need to be a better parent. I need to, to know this, that there's knowledge and education you gain, but also instinctually as a parent. I think you do know what your child needs and, and when you go with that, it generally works out. And

Janae: I think when you're talking about.

From the. Neurology or biological perspective, the child probably also has somewhat of an understanding [00:08:00] or a pull towards what they actually need. And you just have to be able to get out of their way and let them do it or help them do it. And figure

Penney: that out. Absolutely. To me. That's the beauty. When we talk about the nervous system and mental health that our brains and our bodies are doing what evolutionary they've always done.

And what we've spent a lot of time fighting against instead of creating, understanding and space for, Yeah, it's, it's beautiful to let our body do what it needs to and trusted to do what it needs to do. Instead of. Trying to push against it and creating more damage by not understanding. So I think I love that when I talk about, I love neuroscience and I love the research that has been done because the research has created so much more understanding.

For our bodies.

Janae: Yeah, I think that there was a definite shift towards.

Maybe this is more tangential and maybe we don't need to go here, but. [00:09:00]

I've been noticing just in the classes that I've been taking recently, how there's definitely different ways that people go about. Trauma treatment and mental health treatment stuff of whether it's more hardcore. Processing and. like. Imageable processing of things. Or. Is it, do you. And do you jumped straight into that or do you teach them how to soothe and regulate?

First or do you even teach them that at all? And. It's interesting how I do to feel like there has been a shift somewhat. I don't know, recently five, 10 years. I don't know exactly. Cause I haven't been in the field for that long. But a shift away from. The more rigid structure things to now a more like, well, let's look at how.

The [00:10:00] behavior and the brain. And the nervous system are all coat relating to each other. And how do we implement them all along with like the body regulation stuff? Whereas before I feel like it was more segmented or separate. Yeah, I can see them. And also interesting because Portus am came out with polyvagal theory in the sixties.

Penney: And we really moved away from that. And it really was two separate like counseling versus, um, like neuroscience was, were, were different things and definitely being able to bring those back together, realizing. That mind and body and all those pieces and how they integrate together. I think that's true in treatment. And then just in understanding ourselves.

That we're a whole pitcher. We're not bits and pieces. Um, big surprise. It's funny because you think back to when they didn't understand the brain at all, and at one time they thought each part of our body had its own brain. And, that we know that's not true. So we have to understand that [00:11:00] we're one integrated system that all works together.

Yeah.

Janae: But it's often. So hard to, I mean, even in the way we talk about it, of like mind, body connection. There is no mind body. It's all one thing. The whole system really can't even verbalize or talk about it in a way that makes sense to us without separating them right

Penney: now. So maybe we just talk about them as the system. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah.

so I would say next question, how has learning about regulating, your nervous system impacted your career? Oh, I would say as a clinician. It gives us words for what I do as a counselor. When you come into session, if we're not able to be in that centered self or regulator own. Uh, emotional response or own nervous system, how that impacts clients.

The same crisis of contagious, that if somebody comes into this down in the office who is depressed or anxious, [00:12:00] Or dysregulated. I have a choice that I can follow that. And. Become in tandem with that. And then we have two very dysregulated, uncomfortable, nervous people in the room. That then can feed and become this, uh,

It's own little ball of energy that seems to grow, or I can be the calming force that the crew is a safe space for that. And I think understanding that is important for my career and for the way that I am a clinician. also at the end of the day, there are days when it's been a long day and I've been in that space of.

Regulation all day long and. I have a 20 minute drive home. And there's days when I will just cry all the way home, which I used to have some shame around. And now it's for me. I just look at it as a resetting of the system of. Uh, releasing of what I've held. sacred space for all day. And then I can come home. It's like a, after it rains and the.

The world is new and refreshed that I can come back to that [00:13:00] space of newness and refresh. And, and that 20 minute drive is perfect for resetting my nervous system and what we understand about how the nervous system works. So I do think as far as my career, it's helped me to give. Understanding to clients in how their nervous system is working in lower shame around emotions and responses.

And then been able to help me understand how to regulate myself and what I need during sessions.

Janae: yeah. I love that. You're talking about the. The power of knowledge around. Normalizing what's happening to you and normalizing what's happening with the clients. But also I think. Normalizing what's happening to you to be able to release shame like we've talked about in some of our shame episodes before.

Of being able to talk about that. Common humanity piece or you're not alone and it doesn't need to be a secret or something weird [00:14:00] that you do. It's like, no, this is just normal. Like, this is just my body resetting and. And how can we allow for that to just be normal?

Penney: Sure. And I think also normalizing that there I've cried in session before which in grad school and even just out of grad school, that's something that I would have never been able to hold space for.

But also just tells me at the level that I'm able to regulate my system enough to be there and be present and to feel what is being felt and to have true empathy. in those moments of sadness and pain that come and really being able to have that journey with someone while still being able to regulate in us, get sucked into it completely.

Janae: Yeah, it's interesting.

To be able to think about. It's that level of being able to pop up and down or. Tap into those feelings, but like you said, not get completely sucked into them. Yeah. For me learning about regulating the [00:15:00] nervous system. In my career.

I think it has helped me to understand or legitimate legitimize.

Why yoga. And mental health goes so well together. And it was nice to be able to have the languaging around.

Y people were coming to class and leaving feeling the way they were and being able to say why. 'cause I feel like in a lot of like, Early days or. Like in the. First parts of like the traditions of yoga. or even when it first barely came over to the west, it was very much so like, woo. Like, well, we don't know it's magic. It just makes you feel amazing and you know, just pretzel your body up and it will heal all your problems. And, I think now it's nice to be able to [00:16:00] say. Here's the. The science behind what is happening. Yeah. And I do still think that there are some things that can be left to the imagination or left to that. Doesn't always need to be exactly described or defined by hard sciences, but also it's nice to be able to have that to fall back on, to understand what is happening.

Penney: Yeah. I like to understand the, what is happening. And I think, um, we had that conversation. I do yoga with Janae, two to three times a week. And can. attest to how that helps to release and create that. And, and she jokes all the time about why do I need to understand the why? you know, when we do a movement, if it releases and I have moments of sadness or crying or whatever that is, and she jokes about that, why do you always have to understand why? I don't know, because I do.

Janae: I don't think it's a bad thing, not a shaming

Penney: thing, but just a. Uh, always being curious in my brain and [00:17:00] around my body and how my nervous system is reacting because it gives me knowledge and input. So.

Janae: Yeah, I've just seen a lot of people trying to use that as a way of intellectualizing what's happening. And I'm always trying to cue away from intellectualize nation in.

More into what is the felt sense of your body and yourself right now? Yeah. And I think that maybe that's where that comes up of that friction of like, I'm trying to cue you. Like, don't think about it. Just feel it. And I feel

Penney: it. And then I get curious about why I felt. So, um, and, and maybe you're right. Maybe it's meaning to step more into the feeling.

And there are times when I do that, but I always like to come back to, what was happening. Having an understanding.

Janae: But yeah, I think for me, I can totally understand that of it makes it feel safer to be able to step into that space when, you know, on somewhat of a intellectual level of what is happening.[00:18:00]

if you don't understand what's happening or if you have no clue what's going on. It can create some fear or like, whoa, what's happening to me right now. And it can become a barrier to being able to do that. I think I just had this thought about. I want to share. When we're talking about that curiosity piece, that.

Penney: If I was a race car driver and my car was making a noise or it was shimmy or doing something off, I would want to investigate and figure that out. And as a clinician, my brain body nervous system, every part of me is the tool that I use for my job. And so having those tuned in. And understanding what is happening with them, I think does create feeling of safety or at least.

I don't know, maybe safety, maybe just. Just fine tuning the tool, right? Fine tuning the machine. That is what is my, my life and my career and my world. And [00:19:00] so having an understanding around that is important to me.

Janae: yeah, that makes sense. Do you feel like there's ever a switch away from. You're thinking of yourself as a tool and more just thinking of yourself as

Penney: a self.

Oh, absolutely. When I do that 20 minute drive home or on weekends, or I've brought up before, in our conversations those times when I take vacation. Extended vacations, short vacations. I'm definitely not in that place. And. Uh, just being able to be human and that's important. So that's what I'm

Janae: saying.

Is the goal to. My goal is for students to be able to do that on the map. Sure. I got that. I guess my goal is multiple. I have to also understand the machine while on the mat.

All right. so our next question is how does understanding your nervous system impact your relationships?

Penney: And my answer to that would [00:20:00] be, it is key to impacting relationships as we do couples therapy. And do our couples retreats and work with couples and all the ways that we do and in our own relationships.

Our ability to understand what's happening with our own system. Create space for calm and connection and, less conflict as we're able to regulate and check in with ourselves and have management over that.

Janae: It truly is like having, a map. And, you know, there's always the joke of like, When you have a new parent.

That it's like, well, no one gave me an instruction manual. I do think that this is a little bit of an instruction manual. Sure

Penney: for ourselves. Ourselves and engage in

Janae: relationships. And in any relationship like we use nervous system regulation techniques in our work relationships all the time. At the time and in our significant other relationships [00:21:00] in other family dynamic relationships, So I, and I'm not a parent yet, but I'm assuming when I become a parent, I will be using that as well. So really it impacts all of it. And it's nice to be able to have. The map to have kind of somewhat of a manual of like, not only do I have a better understanding of myself and why I'm having the reactions that I'm having and what's going on.

But also you can. If you have gone through mapping things with your partner, you can start understanding like, oh, okay. I can see. What their reaction is right now. And. We know we have a plan. We know what we're going to do around it. Yeah. Which is what we teach in our,

Penney: couples courses. Yes. And being able to, how do we regulate ourselves and how do we even, assist our partner in moments when they ask.

to have some support around regulation. At an interesting, it was just thinking, we're talking about the nervous system, but we haven't really described [00:22:00] any of what that means. So it might be good to take a minute for that. When we're talking about polyvagal theory. What we're talking about is, purchases work around how the vagus nerve.

 Works within the brain and how that fight flight system comes into play. That, when we're in that, front of the brain in That cortex region, where everything is online and everything is working, and we're able to have that higher order thinking and have access to all parts of our brain. Those are moments when we talk about in relationships that we're. Connected and we're calm and we're in that place of curiosity and creativity, which is really where we want to be during conversations with our significant other.

Or work relationships, any type of relationships, right? Because we want to be able to have those connected. Calm conversations where we also get curious, that is such the magic of, of relationships is seeking to [00:23:00] understand what is, what is happening with you. Let me see you into your inner world. And then once I have understanding.

Then we can have that moment of, okay. So where did we go from here? Because if we don't understand you can't solve a problem. That's the first part

Janae: of that. Part of it that we talk about a lot with our couples, which I think again, applies to all relationships is the ability to look at things from other people's perspectives without stepping into defensiveness or criticism.

And if you don't have your, full regulation, if your prefrontal cortex isn't online anymore, if you've dropped down into one of those. Fight flight or freezes. Responses, you don't have the cognitive ability to be able to look at something from someone else's perspective. Or to communicate around perspective.

Like the, that part of your, the communicating part of your brain is gone. Yeah. And how [00:24:00] once you've understand that and notice that, and you're able to be able to put words to that of like, this is why every time we talk about this certain topic, it goes haywire. Or this is why when I try and discipline my kid and I'm not in a state of calm myself, it goes.

Badly because. You're then able to say, oh, this is why, and this is how we then. Fix it or get better at understanding how to come back to regulation before coming into those

Penney: conversations. Yeah, absolutely. So thinking about how that works with the vagus nerve, you've had that. That New York cortex at your rational thinking part of the brain.

And then something, and it could be a sound or a word or a feeling or anything that sends that trigger of unsafety. we dropped down into that, the limbic part of the brain, that fight flight part of the brain. as Janae was talking about where we. Some people, this communication in this part of the brain, some people really can't talk once they drop down and have another level, but there's at least some form of [00:25:00] communication changed in this part of the brain where we really want to just go into action and fight it out. Or we.

Uh, want to get away and we don't want to talk about it. So, if you think about how that plays out in relationships, or even in everyday interactions, if we're in the store and we're shopping and something comes up, that feels unsafe to us. And we have that immediate reaction of, I just want to get out of here. I don't want to shop anymore. I don't want to do this where we might make really irrational purchases at this point.

or we maybe become aggressive with the cashier or aggressive in the store in ways that, we wouldn't, if we were functioning from a different part of our brain, And then the next step. We drove down to that. Um, Jenny brought up the lizard brain or the reptilian brain, which is really that base brain down at our brainstem where we are really just, our heart is beating when we're breathing. And we really know into this collapsed where this frozen place.

Where we don't have access to the other parts of our brain. So that's kind of a [00:26:00] map of the nervous system as we're talking about it. In how that works and. And really once you have that drop in level, you need 20 minutes to be able to come back up in our brain, into, to move. As they say up the ladder or up to different spaces in our brain.

So to feel safety and, and have those safety signals.

Janae: And I loved looking at it from the evolutionary perspective of why we're doing this. And if you look at it from like K where you are in a group and we're talking and collaborating and things are flowing and there's ease, but then something. Within one of us or all of us gets triggered and tipped off. Like you hear a sound or someone hears a sound in the Nike said crisis was contagious because we were built to be.

Pack mentality. Yes. And so then everyone. Then jumps down to that next level of we're going to either fight or we're going to flee. Cause that's how you survive. [00:27:00] Yes. And then if you, if your body realizes or comes to the conclusion of, there's no point in fleeing or our fight is futile, or we've been caught.

Then you are. You're tapped all the way down into the I'm just going to breeze. And nobody send me beat and let my heartbeat and. And collapsed and there's, there's nothing left from that. So you're just stuck in hoping that yeah, either the danger moves away. Or you put your body into a state that if the danger does.

NDU. Sure

Penney: it's less painful. Think about a predatory response, right? If a predator is coming for you, you're either going to fight for your life. You're going to run for your life. And if you can't fight and you can't run, you're going to freeze and hide. But really those are our options. And that is where this comes from from an evolutionary standpoint. That that is how we function. And that's still how we function.

In in our bodies and that's just how our bodies work. So less shame around why we do [00:28:00] that. And more just, it is what it is. I don't do spook alleys because my, my response is not a, uh, a flee response. My response is a fight response, and I have punched people. in times when I am scared, it's my first reaction.

And I used to have a lot of shame around that of, you know, why do I do that? What's wrong with me? That it, my immediate reaction is to hurt people, but that is just how my body reacts. And it is going to be what it is, and it's always going to be what it is. And also why in. relationships, if you back me in a corner or I feel threatened in any way, I come out swinging whether that's with Fisher, with words.

And that's my response, right? Yup. So not shame around that. Just that, that's what it is. And so understanding my system, that when I feel that. That change in my system that increase in the heart rate and. Uh, change from a belly breath to a chest Breath or I can feel the adrenaline pumping and report is all is going, or you get the sweats or whatever [00:29:00] that is for me. I feel it on my spine.

Uh, that that's how I'm going to react to that. There's going to be. A fight response that comes from me and that isn't from shame. That's just how my system reacts.

Janae: Yeah. I also think that it's helpful to look at it from that evolutionary perspective, because when, when you're talking to people and we tell them. It takes 20 minutes to come back. Yep. And there's this look of? Like, are you freaking kidding? Like that's so long, like why, and is there a way to fast track that or does it really, do we really need to take 20 minutes?

And you're like, okay. Think about it this way. You've dropped all the way down to a freezer response, which means your body thinks that you are very, very close to death. Like a predator is going to kill you. Yeah. And then you're just going to immediately. Pop back up and be like, yeah, just kidding.

Have fun conversation now, like let's talk about something and it's like, no, you need so much time to reset. Yes.

Penney: I'm It does a resetting and the first we have to [00:30:00] realize their safety and then we have to find that those moments of safety. And then we have to convince our body that yes, we're really are safe. And then.

We come back to that kind of in the folder, into the. That able to reconnect and reengage in the world. It does take time for that.

Janae: Yeah, it's not like a. I just flipped the light switch. Yeah, absolutely. And if we spend a significant amount of our lives or our days. In those two lower states. Being able to slowly train yourself to come back up into that fully functioning state.

I can take a really long time. Yeah. You might not even know what that

Penney: feels like. Yeah. I would say a lot of people. Don't where we start to look for what Deb Danna calls the glimmers, where are there glimmers when I'm in that, that neocortex state, where I feel safe and I feel connected because we do live in a world.

If we're. Online or we're listening to the news or [00:31:00] we're engaged around other people that are in a state of crisis, especially coming out of COVID where we spent a year in a state of crisis. Where we really spent a lot of time in that middle place. Maybe even that lower collapse place. where we didn't get a lot of glimmers of being in the top of our ladder or in the neocortex part of our brain, especially cause we were disconnected.

You were alone. That's what I was going to say. We were in a, uh, a different state. And it's impacted our world. It's impacted us in our mental health and relationships and in so many ways, but definitely, and if we grow up in a place of. In, uh, a family or an abuse or in that crisis of contagious, if our parents were always in a state of crisis or anxiety,

Or, I mean, all of those things. Impact us and where we're at in our nervous system. And whether we be can even recognize that higher state. It's uh, it's interesting. how that impacts our body with increased [00:32:00] cortisol and adrenaline gland, adrenal glands, and. all tied together.

Janae: Yeah. Definitely.

Interesting to understand how. All of that slowly plays into what is happening. Moment to moment. Yeah. I think you can't separate

Penney: it out. No, definitely not all tied together.

Okay, so now we're going to move past asking. Questions about our specific nervous systems and our understanding of it. And now move into more of tips on. Things that we think will be helpful to share with you about. How you can start understanding your nervous system better. So that might begin with.

Asking and reflecting on each of the different nervous system states. That you are coming into moment to moment. Yeah, absolutely. in the polyvagal theory, which we've talked about already a little [00:33:00] bit. Those states are described as your ventral vagal. That's when we're at that. Uh, what they call the top of the ladder, that front part of the brain we talked about earlier.

Your, sympathetic, which is that fight flight response, and then your dorsal bagel, which is really that collapsed state that were frozen. And, and we don't have a lot of access to. Yeah. So if you don't want to have to remember all of the scientific words. They do give it with the symbol of the ladder. So you're either at the top of your ladder, the middle of your ladder or the bottom of your ladder or remembering the ladder. Doesn't just have three wrongs. It's got multiple rungs per state. Try to remember. Sometimes we can be still a little bit anxious and moving more into that freeze response, or we can be.

Uh, anxious, but coming into more of a place of safety and calm. so just remembering there's multiple rungs as we move through that ladder. Sometimes it feels like you miss all the rungs and you land at the bottom, and then sometimes you could feel yourself, really go down through the different rungs of the ladder.

Or kind of [00:34:00] hovering in the middle of them a little bit, or flip-flopping back and forth between two states. so.

One of the ways that we. Have started working with people with the polyvagal theory is having them. Map out their own. Nervous system responses, for people at home, penny, what would you recommend? They do. My recommendation would be sit down with a box of colored pencils or markers. And a blank sheet of paper. And think about a time when you were.

Probably a collapsed state is generally what I recommend to a timeline. Low access to language. Curl up and evolve really just, That I can't communicate can't connect can't anything. Cause we're really just shut down place that we, that we get to in that frozen part of the dorsal bagel and map it from there. What Are your thoughts, [00:35:00] feelings. Emotions actions abilities when you're in that state. And then I recommend moving up from there. After you came from that state, you can, you can go either way with it. I'd have clients go either way from. The what got me there or the what brought me up. So I think you can go either way, of, if you were at a calm state before that, what occurred right before we got to shut down.

And, and think about what are the thoughts, feelings, emotions during that time. And then before that, when we're in that calm, connected state, what are the thoughts, feelings, and emotions that come up during that state? It's really a lot of a free flow of words. whatever. Words come up to you. If you think about that top of the ladder.

And also thinking about what is sleep like in each one of the states? What is a food intake during each one of the states? is there any use of substances in each one of the states and the use of social media? So other numbing behaviors that might come into that. Yeah, that was one that we added to that [00:36:00] exercise.

was talking about your use of electronics or social media, because it can be a form of numbing out similar to substance use, or even some disordered eating.

so mapping out. Kind of each of the states for yourself to create a little bit more of an understanding of what. In the past, it's been like for you to be in each of those. Can you can get more clarity then on when you're moving through your days. Of like, where am I at right now? That might be something that you start checking in with yourself, like in the mornings or mid points throughout your day, and then even the evenings. Where am I at on my ladder? If you want to think of it in that way, or where am I at? Within my nervous system? Yeah.

So if you've got a good map and if you're having a hard time tracking, I was at the bottom of my ladder. This is where I was in the middle. This is where I was the top. You can think about, an incident in your life when you're in each one of those states and then just kind of that free-for-all flow of [00:37:00] what that was like for you.

In the words and the colors are finding a color that goes with each one of those states, which one color reminds you of a feeling of shutdown, which color reminds you of a feeling. Of anxious energy. and which is, a feeling of calm. And then drawing your map out in those colors. Yeah. Helpful.

Yeah. Yeah. I would also say there's some other things you can watch for within yourself as you're going through your day, watching your heart rate. If your heart rate goes above a hundred beats per minute, you're heading down the ladder. And then also watching your breath. belly breaths or calm breaths that deeper, harder chest breaths. Those anxious breaths.

I'm thinking about if you're running away from something, how you would breathe, if your breath changes to that, then we're, uh, we're, we'll be down our ladder. That's another indication of that. Also a lot of people in their stomach, if it starts to fill up tight or nervous or fluttery or stabbing pain, Stomach is a good place to get alerted about where we're at on [00:38:00] that ladder is that biggest nerve runs right across there that through that vagal brake. And then another thing is your facial expressions for me, I punched my draw. I know if I'm starting to clench my jar for pain in my jaw, I'm probably moving down my ladder.

another one is the tongue rises to the top of your mouth. which I've had some clients really show is an indicator of where they're at and I'm not sure why that is, but it definitely. is the thing. it would be interesting to know the physiology behind that. And then another thing is our voice has changed.

Maybe you think about when we're in a calm state and we're talking to someone versus where we are in a nervous or shutdown state. your voice changes. So that's another thing you can really watch for. Other things to watch for our body language. Are you starting to have turn away behaviors? Like we're not facing people where.

We're pulling away from them, trying to escape, get away, getting into that flight place or feeling frozen and, try not to be seen. That's another one of those that you can pay attention to? Yeah. I feel like eye contact is a really big one [00:39:00] for a lot of people. Me included as well.

Being able to notice when I start to feel anxious or feel like I'm pulling away from people there's, there is a break of eye contact with them and he just, and it just doesn't feel comfortable or safe to make eye contact anymore. Yeah. Biting my lip. I've done that one forever and have known it has to do with the nervous system, but didn't really connect it to my lot of it. That's a big one for me biting my cheek or my lip.

Uh, so it touching the face. I look at that as almost like a, a hiding response, right. Trying to hide or get away. As a flee response. So touching the face is another one of those. Yeah. So kind of starting to seek out an deeper understanding of what are your signs and symptoms. And as you're moving through each of the ladders,

or each of the parts of the ladder. Yeah. And just, you can use these to track that. Am I doing that? Where do you, what do you think that means in that state? if that's helpful as we go over the things that we do. [00:40:00] And like penny said, you could either map that from the question of. Uh, how did I get here? Or.

Thinking of the past thing and going state to state. But then once you have your map done, you might start to ask yourself more. Of those little check-ins of where am I at right now? And then what do I need right now? Yeah. And these can be things that you do, a check-in with yourself. Like a little mental check-in or maybe you're checking in with a partner or like during our weekly business meetings, we do a two word check-in so that we can kind of.

Personally check in with what our mental states are, but then also you're verbally checking in with the team. So everyone knows. Kind of where you're at. but I think once you can start understanding more of where you are a moment to moment and what are the signs that you're [00:41:00] going down or bringing yourself back up.

You can then start to understand more of, okay, what do I need right now to come back up my ladder, to make your way back into that sense of safety and community and that the world is safe again, to be in. Yeah, absolutely. And start to notice when you're moving down your ladder and you're in a safe situation and you're not sure why.

And really began to pay attention, to give yourself some level of control. It's so hard. For every one of us when we're. In a social situation that is supposed to be enjoyable. Right. And pretty soon we notice we're moving down our ladder and we have no idea why, and it feels so emotionally out of control. So I think recognizing how we can have control over it and understand it gives us a lot of power as people.

Yeah. I mean, it goes back to that phrase of. Knowledge is power. Yeah. And it can be frightening or it can really freak you out if you're [00:42:00] constantly either stuck in one state, because really we want to be able to fluidly move through all of them. We don't want to stay in the top forever. Right. There are going to be situations where we do need to move through and let our nervous system function fully, but we just don't want to get stuck in any of them. or be looping through them constantly.

Or be in. a lower place right. In our ladder when there's not really reason for that. Yeah. So really being able to have some regulation around that. Yeah, which might come from like your hyper arousal. Trauma. Trauma. Yeah. So. things we can do things we can do ladder, we call those glimmers, things that we can do to give us, feelings of safety or hope or.

Or help to move that system. So deep breaths are one of those is we as, as a belly breath. It's that bagel break. Thinking about safety, telling yourself I'm safe. I'm okay. I'm safe. I'm okay. so doing some mental rehearsal of [00:43:00] that going for a walk, anything bilateral that uses left right. Left rights, whether that's tapping or walking. And those are really helpful things to be able to move us up the ladder.

go and touch grass. Uh, barefoot and grass. Looking outside. Yeah. Taking some time to be. Mindful of what's around you. What do you hear? What do you smell? What do you see? Those grounding techniques are a good thing to help. Yeah. And one thing you can do is use eye movements, cause quite a few of the vagus nerves have endings right around in your cranial nerves and near right around your eyes.

And so. The more, you can direct your eyes around the room and dart them around. Um, I guess not dark, but slowly moved them around. Can help as well. Also massaging the ear or behind the ear. is one that a lot of my clients find helpful and it's something that you can do in a meeting around other people. It doesn't look as, conspicuous as all of a sudden, you take your shoes off and dart outside to the grass or something you can do when [00:44:00] you're in a situation that you're around. People.

Yep. Also sighing. Sign and letting out that energy and those deep sighs. help also. I want to also mention that. It's important to come at all of these skills from a place of sometimes it's not going to immediately pull you back up. You probably won't. So taking, yeah, taking this within the realm of understanding that everything within your body and nervous system takes time.

Just slowly work its way back towards safety and calm. And one thing that can push you further down from my personal experience. Is trying some of these techniques. And expecting it to immediately fix it and then eat. The critical voice comes in that says like this isn't working, you're not doing it right.

And it causes you to go deeper into a panic. [00:45:00] So the more you can use self-compassionate techniques to be able to just give yourself compassion for the pain or panic or frustration of the situation that you're in. Too. Combat that critical voice that might come up. And one thing in therapy that, came up recently was okay. Is it, if you're thinking about it on a scale of one, all the way up to 10.

You're not going to go from a two all the way up to a 10, but can you go from a two to a three. Or to, to afford. It's kind of like what you were talking about with that. We forget that there are those smaller rungs and so. One thing that was helpful for me to think about is like, okay, I'm going to work on my breathing exercises.

But then if I get frustrated at myself that I'm like, okay, I expected to be. A lot more calm at the end. Can I ask? Okay. Am I half you. Is it, is it like a 2.5 now? that was hopeful to [00:46:00] look at it as like it's incremental change to go back towards that state of safety and being able to use those self-compassion techniques of like, okay, this is normal. Everyone goes through this.

how can I care for myself? Like I would care for a child or a loved one. Who's also having these same feelings. And how can I speak to myself? Like I would for a loved one or a child. Yeah, absolutely. Self-compassion and shame takes us back down the letter. Yeah, compassion humps to move us up. Yeah.

Important to remember if shame and criticism are popping up in your internal dialogue. It's going to yeah, like penny said, Do the opposite of what you want. Yeah. Absolutely. so just a quick little note, if you want to go through a polyvagal map with us or spend some time on this. and all of our retreats are couples retreats on our women's retreats.

we spent some time on polyvagal theory and on mapping and learning how to regulate your nervous system. If you want to hop on the website. [00:47:00] And join us for any of those. We'd be happy to go through this process with you. Yeah. One thing I want to tag on to that is when we do this with our couples.

Is there is a moment of clarity when you can share your map with your partner and you can say, here's, what's going on every time. I mean these states or, and then we have them create a plan of. Here's what I need. Yeah. And how do we come back to a sense of safety together? Yeah. And what do I need, or what do I not need from you in those moments?

Yeah, it was just really powerful. It can be a conversation that's really hard to understand. If you, Aren't able to have the written out questions to walk your way through it. Absolutely.

So want to talk about the, it takes to portion and how crisis is contagious. I look at this. As herd animals as humans, we are herd animals. and if you think about a herd of deer and one of them get spooked or cows or [00:48:00] sheep, The animal, a lot of different animals, right? Thinking about the herd animals has any.

He hurt animals. one gets spooked. All of them pay attention. One starts to run. They all run. Right. and that is the same as our nervous system. If somebody around us is in a state that they are dysregulated and they are going down their ladder, we're going to feel that. We're going to feel the, uh, disturbance in the force, so to speak right.

is that energy is passing around the room and around this space. so if you think about relationships, if you're in a relationship with someone that has been through trauma or somebody that is hyper aroused or somebody that is doing, a difficult work project or is in. Uh, school and has finals. And you feel that sense of energy and anxiety around them is that's the place where they're out in that ladder. We're going to feel it also.

so you might be wondering why am I moving down my ladder and not be able to figure out why you're moving down your ladder when maybe it's the person next to you? This would be down there a ladder. And you're feeling that [00:49:00] because we do. Um, as we are also herd animals, that we start to notice that.

so paying attention to that in relationships is really important. And being able to find a regulation within ourself, as other people are moving down their ladder as a clinician, that's something I do every session. As being able to stay. top of my ladder, as people vary on their ladder up and down.

it's a, it's a skill, it's an important skill that we have to learn for relationships. Yeah. One thing I would like to add to that is. It can be really easy when you're in those situations, especially if it's like a roommate or a partner, and it's just the feel of you or two of you at home. And you notice that there's a change. You might not cognitively understand what's happening, but you feel it.

And your reaction can be. What did I do? And then it can lead to like a fight or like sure. You're like, why are you upset with me? Like what happened? And they're probably like, I'm not upset with you, but there's just a lot going [00:50:00] on right now. Yeah. And so what do I need to do? What's the crisis? How do I solve it? How do I fix it? When maybe the person doesn't want the crisis solved or fixed or can't be solved or fixed right now? Yeah, because it's just emotions that are happening. And we, we jump into that, crisis, right. Crisis mode. However, we respond to the crisis mode is how we're responding to the person that we're with.

So being able to find your own regulation techniques that you can use in the moment before you respond. there's all quite a lot online going around about similar things, using attachment theory and regulation in parenting. For all of your conscious parenting and your. oh, what to called? Gentle parenting movement.

most of the series that they're using for those parenting skills are from a regulation co-regulation and attachment theory base. So being able to. Understand. How do I regulate myself before I [00:51:00] go and interact with my child, my significant other, or just the people in your life can be really helpful.

Absolutely. So we don't make the situation worse. We are able to also crisis is contagious pass on that column, right. Because as we're calm, We can help to co-regulate. so we get that can go the other direction. And we can be the calm in the face of that for them is they can be that for us in times when we need that, too. Yeah. Instead of adding to the crisis, you can be the calm within the storm, the rock within the.

The rapids or whatever. Yeah, absolutely.

All right. We're ready to spin our wheel. Yeah, let's do it. Okay.

Oh, I got a four. So even. So what is my go-to 30 seconds stock drop way of moving up your ladder or stabilizing. Uh, I would say this kind of depends on where I'm at. If I'm at home, I'd go out to my shop and I do some painting or crocheting or something creative, or just being in that creative space for me, it already sets up that space of calm [00:52:00] or lean in the hammock on my porch and watching the sunset being outside, definitely barefoot in the grass, going for walks.

and breathing the belly breaths help me. And. walking, I pace. I'm a pacer and I sigh. So those are my big 32nd. Go-tos. Cool. All right. That will spin.

I got an odd. All right. What are the long-term effects you've noticed after being in states of dysregulation for long periods of time? Oh, It's kind of a big question for spin the wheel one. The long-term effects that I've noticed is like, it becomes harder to allow myself to flow freely through the states.

It becomes a lot more like. I don't know, like a rollercoaster that doesn't have its chain. Greased enough or you're kind of like getting jerked up and down, is how I would describe it. And so it just becomes harder to [00:53:00] move through those states. And also, I think psychologically, it becomes harder for me to believe that I can come back up to a higher state. I went through.

Uh, fees are a period of time where a lot of my therapy homework was to. Journal about what are my glimmers? What does make me happy? What does bring me up? Because for a long time it was like, I don't think that there's anything. I just don't feel anything. Then that's a depressive symptom. That's really common for people of like,

You're talking about glimmers or things that can bring you up, but if it feels like nothing you within your life can do that, it can feel really hopeless. Yeah, absolutely. And you start to hold that way. And if we haven't had access to self or to that top of the ladder for awhile, we may not notice and we really may just have to find moments.

Where we start to pit 10 attention to those. Cause we know maybe what brings us down or what we're anxious about, but less about what brings us up. Um, starting to pay attention to that as important. Yep. Okay.

Rapid-fire rapid fire. Let's [00:54:00] do it. Okay.

This is always so funny because it doesn't end up being rapid. Fire at all. Cause. I have to be rapid answer because the answer is much easier than I think the other, what is something you're looking forward to in the next week? Um,

I'm looking forward to the weekend. There's some fun work plans and I'm excited to dive into. And also, my partner wants to go to the movies and we have some passes to a baseball game here in town. That will be fun. Those sound like amazing plans. Yeah. How about you? Same question. Uh, what is something that I'm looking forward to?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe it's not rapid answer. Maybe I'm just kidding.

I'm looking forward to yoga tonight. I always enjoy being able to stretch my muscles and feel good in my body. And we have a new, a new teammate joining us for our retreats. Who's going to be doing massages and she's going to be coming to get to those [00:55:00] massages on the weekend. And I'm excited for that.

So those are the two self-care things and looking forward to. Yeah, I'm excited to test her out and. yeah, that'll be fun. Cool. just a quick reminder, if you want to head over to the Patrion, our mini episode this week, we're going to be talking your way through of that mapping your nervous system.

So if you want to learn more and you want to be talked through how to do that mapping that we were talking about.

You can head over to the patron to get access to that. Yep. And we'll talk to you. Next week. Yeah. Bye bye.