Ep. 17 Dads Talk About Their Journeys Becoming Fathers

Join us for a special guest episode with three dads who talk about their experiences of fatherhood so far. We dive into questions like "What is your favorite part of being a dad" to "How you are coping with all the changes fatherhood brings". Stay tuned for next week where we have both the moms and dads on together! CW: Miscarriage

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Ep. 17 Dads Talk About Their Journeys Becoming Fathers

janae: [00:00:00] Welcome to Untangling Relationships, a conversation between a counselor and a yoga teacher, a Gen X er, and a millennial, and a mother and daughter. Join us as we explore the ins and outs of relationships with your hosts, Janae and Penny.

penney: Hi, and welcome, and we have some special guests that have joined us, we're Doing some episodes on parenting and we are really lucky to have had three dads that have agreed to join Like often dads don't have a voice in Discussions around parenting so we're really excited to be able to have this opportunity to have this conversation and Have fathers that are willing to join us for that.

So we'll start with introductions and So we'll start with you See, if I say your name, then I've already introduced you. So, just get to start.

david: Uh, hi, I'm Dave. I am, , 35, and I'm having my first child in January. , and the [00:01:00] first word that would describe fatherhood that comes to mind would be... Nervousness. I had an interesting experience in my childhood, and hopefully I can make a better one for my child.

penney: Yeah. That's understandable. Nerves. Mm hmm.

janae: Yeah, I'd be worried about you if you weren't a little bit nervous.

penney: It's like, it's a big thing. I would love I would love magic wand that we could give parents that just stepped into the confidence of their intuition. I know that doesn't exist, but it should be nice.

Yeah,

johnny: okay, I guess it's my turn. Yes,

janae: go for it.

johnny: Okay, i'm johnny. I'm 33. I have a 13 month old daughter. So we're diving right into crazy toddler mode. If I had to describe fatherhood in one word, it'd probably be busy.

joe: Very

busy.

penney: Yeah, they don't stop.

No. Yeah. [00:02:00] But it's great.

penney: Yeah, it is fun to see them moving and having personalities, even though it's, it is busy.

Yes.

joe: I'm Joe. I'll be 35 in a couple weeks. , I'm the father of Everest. He's three. And I just have to say that. Or if that describes fatherhood as adventurous, you never really know what's going to happen day to day. , Even little things. Everything's an adventure, I'd say.

penney: Yeah, I love that. I love, , the thought of those three words together for the three of you.

So, a nervous, busy adventure. Yeah. As most adventures are, right? You have some nerves around them and they get filled with things and, , you never know what's gonna happen, so. I love that. So we'll jump right into question number one, and then we'll go in order. , Dave and then Johnny and then Joe. And so first question is, what emotional changes have you noticed around being a dad?

david: for emotional changes for me, I've been, , wanting to make sure that, , things are [00:03:00] are Ready for baby, not like my wife wants with the nursery and the house, but I'd like Outer out of home things to be prepared like finances and work stability

joe: and

david: that's to me a little nerve wracking when Sometimes feels like it's out of my control.

It's unstable. Yeah. Yeah. Very unstable. And so, that was, that's, , can be emotionally, , rollercoaster ride, at least for me at the moment.

penney: Yeah. So all the emotions of being a new dad and wanting to make sure everything is ready. And like you said, not the day to day things, but kind of those big picture things.

Yeah. Yeah. That makes

sense.

johnny: So affecting emotionally? That was the question? Yeah. Mmhmm.

I mean, I was pretty emotional before I had a kid, so I guess now I'm just amplified more sensitive to things. , just dumb things, you know, you'd be like in the store and I'll see Lily look at something that I remember looking at, you know, and it'll [00:04:00] spark a memory. And then I'll start to kind of tear up like, wait, I'm in public.

Why am I, why am I feeling emotional right now? It's just, you just kind of, I'm a little bit more sensitive, I guess, to this. I don't know. That's what I've noticed for sure.

penney: Yeah. And I don't know, , Johnny, if that changes being a parent. I definitely think I've been more emotional since I became one and it hasn't changed.

So that makes sense. Changes emotions.

johnny: I have someone to cry with during Disney movies now. So, I've got that going for me. That's awesome. Because he likes to give me crap

penney: about that.

janae: It's interesting that she gave the opposite kind of answer, , that she was like, didn't I really identify with those emotions before? And it makes me feel like maybe we have opposites in our pairings because I'm definitely like cry at every Disney movie and my partner is not. And so it's really interesting, like you probably need the balance.

So it'd be good for me to have a [00:05:00] little kid to cry with

johnny: I think the,

joe: the one thing for me that I've had to realize is that, , my son will match my energy, whether it's for the good or the bad. So if I'm, you know, out of control and feeling stressed, then he'll feel stressed and therefore act out in such a way to, , manifest that, I guess.

So I guess, , just realizing that you need to be more calm and cool and cool headed otherwise your stubborn three year old will match you. And then you're like, why are you being like this? And he's like, I'm just matching what you're doing. So.

penney: So it sounds like for you, Joe, more awareness around your emotions where maybe you didn't notice them before.

There's a lot of awareness with another person reflecting those back like a mirror. Yeah,

joe: like when you just like say something under your breath and then he repeats it and you're like, Oh, correct.

penney: Yeah, that makes sense. All right. So next question. What changes have you noticed in your Your relationship with your partner, , [00:06:00] with being a dad.

david: I know for me, , I like to sneak, , Rubbing her belly to rub the baby. , , which I didn't do before. And, , we do more, , weekly checks, , and every other day check up on baby and how, how she's doing and , beforehand I, was concerned making sure that Tina would get the proper nutrients and now I feel super concerned about her.

I guess super annoying to her, like, hey, what do we need to feed for baby and what, what nutrients and make sure everything and, , when, , Tina , had a Crohn's, flare up , , a couple weeks ago, I was, , , , super stressed about it, , , and I feel like a couple of times I can be annoying with asking and double checking up on her, , and, , , I know, , somewhat.

, intimately, it's been a little stressed just because, , at the beginning, , they're super [00:07:00] nauseous and just, , couldn't be super intimate because like I was afraid of making her throw up.

penney: Yeah. So it changes in that the baby has become a big focus of the relationship, less on each of you separate and more on baby, it sounds like.

david: In my mind, I feel like it. . Yeah. Yeah. I feel as we bring that up, , a little bit guilty that I feel more focused on Baby and not Tina.

But that's, that's what it feels like right now.

penney: You've got two other dads that have been through that experience. Maybe they can give you some support around that or, uh, been there too.

johnny: I mean, I guess for me, , Ken and I were worried about when we had a kid, if we would grow. Cause a lot of it is like passing the baton. Someone has to watch the kid while someone's doing the normal [00:08:00] house chores and stuff. So I guess what we were worried about was, well, we're going to be individually spending time with her.

Like, periodically throughout the day. So we don't, we want to make sure that our relationship doesn't die, per se. Because we're just focusing on Lily. , I really... So far, it hasn't been like that. , to me, it's kind of we just preemptively give each other more heads up on like, Hey, I'm on a plan to go out with my friends this day for this long, you know, and Kenzie has her thing too.

So we find ways to where we have our own outlets and then as well as, Well, it's kind of hard in the beginning when she's newborn. You can't really take her anywhere. But then once she gets older, you can start taking her places and it gets, it gets pretty fun because then now Kenzie and I, we We do a lot of stuff together, and we just get to see it through Lily's eyes.

So, in a way, it's gotten, making our relationship better, I think. So... Yeah, it's brought you

penney: closer as a couple. Yeah, [00:09:00] definitely. And learning to work as a team in a different way that you haven't before. Yeah.

joe: I think the biggest thing for me, Before we had Everest, I thought, like, it's like I have always trusted her with everything, like, she's been in charge of, you know, paying bills and everything like that.

So if she was to go before me, I would be screwed. So she's been in charge of all that. , I've put a lot on her that way. , when we first had the baby, I, for the first six weeks, I was, I was terrified. Because I had a brother that passed away of SIDS at six weeks old. And, so every night, I would check on the baby like multiple times just because I was terrified that, you know, something would happen.

I don't know why but just it was always there and I think over the last three years just, , realizing that, , Heather was patient with me about, you know, sometimes I'd accidentally wake him up just checking on him and she'd be like, Yeah, why? [00:10:00] And I'd be like, uh, uh, mm. You're right. Sorry. And just, just things like that.

Just being patient about the different nuances that we are bringing into the relationship now that we have a son. and just having more faith in one another. , so like some nights Heather would be like, I need you to take the baby for a couple hours so I can have some me time. Can you handle it? Like worst case scenario, I put him to bed early.

I mean, yeah, we got this. It's not a big deal. And vice versa. Like if I've had a bad day, then.

penney: So again, some of that teamwork and also, , one thing I heard you bring up Joe and David that you did earlier is that your own childhood experiences coming into this experience and, and how those come up in a very different real way that maybe they haven't before. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

penney: So the next question kind of goes into that with that teamwork and taking shifts and having [00:11:00] some of those childhood worries and anxiety and everything that comes into that. How are you guys taking care of yourselves as dads?

david: Um, sleep.

penney: The other dads would tell you to get all you can now because that would become a very precious commodity.

joe: Sleep now and start stocking up on energy drinks. Get it while you can, man.

johnny: For sure.

david: , before where I am with my current job, , I, , Ran myself ragged and, and didn't get a lot of sleep, and right now I'm getting probably the most sleep I have in my adult life.

, so I, I feel prepared. I may be a little rusty with not getting sleep, but I have, I do feel prepared.

Um,

david: I guess sleep, listen to music for self soothing, . There are times when, , we do, , babysit a friend's, , child and I know there are times I need to step, step away [00:12:00] and just take a breather cause, , it may be a little overwhelming but just those little things like taking a deep breath, , knowing that the The child's not going to explode if they, if it doesn't go their way,

penney: so.

They might, maybe not self destruct, but they might explode.

david: yeah, sleep and take a breath.

johnny: Yeah. Yeah, I guess, , with me, we, we got kind of lucky with Lily because she was already sleeping in her crib through the night at like three months. . But definitely sleep is a big thing that you try to squeeze in whenever you can. During the beginning, there was some nights where like, literally I'm on my knees, like sleeping with my head on the bed with the crib next to me.

Just like every time she would pop out the binky, I would just wake up and put the binky back in her mouth and then put my head back down on the bed. It was like. There is some [00:13:00] pretty brutal nights, , You just learn. I, I guess, like you were saying with, , your job, I guess I was kind of conditioned for this too, because I, I did work a construction job for eight years, where there was some jobs I worked on that you slept in the truck for 20 minutes and kept going.

So, I guess I was kind of conditioned for that. That kind of worked out, because I'm not a morning person, but Kenzie is, so I take night shift, she takes morning shift. , but definitely take naps when you can, and , have your little outlets. You know, I, I go to the skate park every Saturday morning at 6am.

That's kind of like how I keep healthy, I guess. To keep moving, to do something other than just chasing a kid around. , what else? Yeah, I know. Like, just little, little breathers like you said, too, because, , earlier, someone was mentioning reflecting personality. Sometimes I'll kind of get like a little upset and start like raising my voice, and then I'll look at my kid and [00:14:00] be like, Oh, I need to like calm down, because this is creating tension in the air.

So you just kind of stop and breathe. And , so yeah, I mean, I guess that's kind of how I've been taking care of myself is making sure that I have some little outlets and have time for naps and controlling your emotions in front of your kid, too, I guess, so that's it.

penney: Yeah, that's a lot of good stuff, Johnny. I love that. That making sure you have a routine to take care of you and taking a breather, noticing when you need to, and then playing to your strengths. I heard that with you and Mackenzie, too, that I'm better at nights, she's better at mornings, and as a team we've...

We've taken care of ourselves by having that conversation and finding our strengths and capitalizing on them.

janae: Yeah. And I would like to say like, I know you phrased it as like controlling your emotions around your kid, but I love that you are already starting to [00:15:00] model like, okay, getting upset is normal.

This is how you regulate it. This is how you take care of it without exploding on other people. Right. So yeah,

that's awesome.

joe: You know, it's funny about this time last year. , , I took a step away from work for two and a half months for mental health. , working through PTSD that I didn't know I had. , and I think the biggest thing was realizing that as a father, we're always told that as our guests as men, , , don't have emotions, bury those feelings, drink some alcohol and die.

Pretty much what we've been taught our entire life. And I was drinking like crazy, like a fish and. Just wasn't like I was here, but I wasn't here. So I wasn't present like I'd get home and I'd watch the baby But I'd be distracted with other things, you know to try and cover up what I was fighting So my advice is if you're feeling [00:16:00] like you're not okay.

It's okay to get some help. I Was terrified I was I'm the main in the household. , just like you said, Dave, you want everything to be taken care of and formula and everything else. You know, those are our concerns. , Heather couldn't breastfeed when she first, when we got Everest. So it was always on, you know, I always made up the difference on stuff we needed, but My advice is if you're starting to feel like some stuff's out of control, maybe take a step back, and that's the best thing I can say, is just focus on that.

What I've been trying to do lately is be more active. , I do play video games to help take my mind off of, , the stresses of the day. And I also like metal detecting, so, and sometimes it's hard to, you forget sometimes what you used to love. And if you just try and go back to that, I think you'll be [00:17:00] okay.

penney: Yeah. So for you, Joe, tapping into reaching out for support and, , rediscovering you and your hobbies and taking time for those. Yeah.

And I love bringing up the stigma of, , what it means to be a man and what comes with that in society.

Any, , dad thoughts, anybody want to share more about that? Taking care of yourself and what that journey's like. You can free flow for a minute if you want to.

david: Uh, I know one image that Joe brought up that a lot of dads, at least in the past, like to drink to cope. and you see that image a lot of places and, going back to some of my past experiences, both of my parents, were, steady alcoholics.

Before I hit the age of 10, my mom was trying to work on [00:18:00] AA. And there were times when she couldn't find a babysitter. And so I would be dragged along and hang out with the other AA kids My dad never seeked help for his alcoholism, which makes me, really nervous. but at the same time, I've not, gone into heavy drinking at all. But I know that that's both a part of, my past and, I don't necessarily want to say genetics, but I have it in me to be an alcoholic. so it, has me worried that there's the potential to be there.

if you look at my liquor cabinet, that's probably the dustiest thing in the house and the kitchen is because we barely touch the stuff out of anything. We have a nice collection of bottles with liquor in them, but we hardly touch the stuff.

janae: Yeah, but just that societal stigma of, this is how you handle hard things as a man, or this is how you [00:19:00] handle emotions, , yeah, it makes sense.

penney: Any other thoughts, any, , ways to cope, with, The stigma of what it means to be a dad or your own experiences with your own dad. , and being a parent that you guys want to talk about.

You know, I,

joe: there was an experience that happened, , it was pretty early on in our relationship. It was, , the first time that we miscarried, , never really talked about this with anybody before, , except for my, my therapist, but, uh, So when Heather miscarried, I was at work, and, uh, I asked if I needed to come home, and she said, no, we need the money.

So, that stigma of, you know, bury it, work, deal with it later, was definitely in full, was definitely something early on that, Was, was a [00:20:00] struggle, uh, you know, cause it, it definitely affects the man, um, when they lose a baby, but we can't let it show, um, I didn't tell Heather, it bothered me for like five years after the fact, because it was her body, she lost the baby in, and I didn't feel like I could express to her how much it hurt me that we lost the baby as well, you know, I see one of Heather's, uh, cousins, sons, and, Will be the same age as ours that we lost and I'm so grateful for our son now, but the pains of that loss still show their ugly head from time to time.

Um, so once again, just trying to break down the stigma that, yeah, you're a man, but you can feel those feelings. [00:21:00] And, and it honestly, it would have been better if I had talked about my feelings with Heather earlier than five years later. Um, you 20 20 as they say. And I think that's the one thing is just try not to keep bottled

up.

Yeah.

penney: Well, I'll still trying to be there and be strong. It sounds like I read something recently about how little attention we give to men's emotions around birth. , and I don't remember the exact wording of the study I was reading, but it was talking about that a man watches their wife go to the brink of death or their partner.

To go to the brink of death in order to bring a human into the world. And, and they watch that and they see it and, and they go through that whole emotional process. , but there's no support or conversation around the trauma that creates. When you think about the definition of PTSD, it's the fear of, of losing your own life or [00:22:00] watching someone else go through that process.

And you do, and yet we don't talk about it. And there isn't a discussion about what. You know, we talk about the beauty of that experience, but also the fear. , and I'm not a man, so I don't know what that's like to stand and see that, but I can imagine the fear that must come up of that needing to protect and take care of things while being supportive and strong and watching that process happen.

And then not talking about it, that it's just becomes a, a non discussion. Yeah. Well, and also what

janae: I heard from Joe was not feeling like it's okay to take ownership or have a space in that conversation because it wasn't your body that went through it, but it is still your child.

david: Yeah. Well, you bring this up.

It just reminds me of, what happened to, Christopher and, , Becca, they had Kinsley, and that was a freaky experience for a lot of people. And I [00:23:00] remember, Teen Engine A and Penny asking Becca how they felt, and I don't remember if, Christopher was asked, but I'm sure he was freaking out something too.

And, and this is one of the good things and bad things with Christopher is that he's so stoic, and tries to hold everything together, he'll, and not talk, but more than likely inside he's, Probably freaking out the most and has his hair on fire and everything.

penney: Yeah. , talking with Christopher after, after that experience and he was, him and Beck were hoping to join and weren't able to join.

, but what he said was you don't know who to save and who to be there for, because you need to be there for the baby, but you also need to be there for your partner and you don't know who to be there for, as you have two things that now you care about and love. And don't know your loyalty or your care while you're also going through your own emotions and how difficult that was.

so yes, Christopher and I have many, have had many conversations about that and, , [00:24:00] and what that process was like during and after and even trying to process it now that, , of the fear of, I almost lost my partner and I can't imagine what my world would be without that person. While also being grateful for the new human in your life.

johnny: Yeah, definitely, , Terrifying experience when you're a new dad who's never taken care of a baby. Cause I never, I guess growing up, I have a pretty big family. But, , my dad and I, we wouldn't play with the little kids until they were little kids, right? I was always terrified of holding a fragile little baby.

So then Kenzie, with her experience, so she was in labor for like two days or something. I can't remember, it was a blur, but ended up having to do an emergency c section. I remember just being terrified like, oh man, like Kenzie is gonna be... Out of commission and she's the baby expert and I'm the new person in this process so I remember that being pretty emotionally, like, dreading in the beginning, like, oh, I have no idea what to [00:25:00] expect.

I remember when they released us from the hospital, I'm like, oh, I'm terrified, I can't believe they're letting us take this baby home. And, , like, you guys want to come with us? You know? I don't know if I can actually do this. But, , I guess to, like, ease a new dad's nerves, it's really not that bad. I mean, it's kind of shocking in the beginning, I think maybe that's...

Something to do with adrenaline or something, but you get through it. It's kind of like a instinctual thing, I guess, because I know My dad never really learned how to change a diaper. So growing up around my dad I was kind of taught that I would never have to You know, I mean so but millennial dads are a little different.

So yeah, I'm grateful for that too because I have a lot of new Skills with kids that I didn't have before, that I didn't know I had, and it's really not that hard. It's just learning. It's a learning curve, but it's not impossible.

janae: Yeah, it's a skill, just like

johnny: everything else. Yeah, I know, it's like nothing, [00:26:00] but it's frustrating that my dad can't babysit.

That's all I'm gonna say.

You

janae: say, well, now's the time to learn. You can still learn.

Yeah, sure. He'll have an

penney: excuse. We need grandpa training.

johnny: Yeah, he's just waiting until she's, you know, like five years old and can run around at the park and all that. That's, that's what he, that's where he thrives.

Mm hmm.

johnny: But taking care of little babies, no.

penney: He's still not really, not ready to embrace

johnny: that. No, I think it's just, I don't know. It's wrong to say that it's boring, but that's kind of, I think that's, to him, that's what it is. He's just like, well, what do I do with this? It's just gonna sleep. Oh, I'll hold it while it's sleeping.

Oh, it pooped here. It's your problem

now. . , my dad. Bless his heart.

penney: All right, we're gonna move into tips now if everybody's okay with that. So tips to give, , [00:27:00] current dads, future dads wherever we're at in the journey. If you could go back to the day you found out you would be a dad, what advice would you give yourself?

Uh,

david: it'll be okay. Keep doing your best and it'll be okay.

johnny: Um, yeah, have more, have more confidence in yourself. I guess, like I said, I was really terrified because I had never taken care of a baby before, but you just, it's kind of, you just, you feel it out and you learn it and it's instinctual and it becomes very special, so.

penney: So, confidence in yourself and it'll be okay.

johnny: Confidence in yourself. Don't, don't doubt yourself too much. Be like, oh man, I can't do this. I've never done this. And, you know, what if I do it the wrong way and cause my baby some hard emotions or something? You know, it's not, I guess I'm an overthinker. So going into it, it's like, oh man, I hope I [00:28:00] don't create some type of monster.

I don't know, but it's, it's been really fun so far. So,

penney: so funny time to enjoy it along

johnny: the way. Yes, but also, um, one of my co workers, he has a five year old, and I remember asking him for advice. Like, what is your advice, like, during the first few months? And he's like, my advice is to just make sure that you get away sometimes.

Like, cause, you know, as men, we'll kind of, like, bottle things up, and not really show emotion or address issues or anything, but you do have to kind of get away, even if it's just... Getting in the car and driving around the block a few times and coming back. You kind of just have to, because when, at the beginning you're kind of like tied to this feeling of I have complete responsibility over this human that can't [00:29:00] do anything yet.

So I am just balled and chained to that. I cannot have any outlets, but that's not true. You can Even just going to the store is nice. Like, hey, do we need stuff? You know, what do we need? And then you just go do some normal things and come back. Just taking breathers, doing normal things. Normal life things would be my

advice.

penney: So being able to just take care of things besides just a focus on baby. Yes,

johnny: normal house stuff, as well.

Gotcha.

johnny: To kind of keep, take your mind off of it.

penney: Yeah, so you don't feel so inundated emotionally and mentally. Right.

joe: I think my advice would be that you just gotta take it day by day. , cause if you just try and overthink it, which some of us [00:30:00] do, you'll feel overwhelmed a lot faster. , also realize that Your baby will do things on their own timetable. My son was a little behind on a lot of his, his accomplishments, walking, you know, talking, speaking and stuff like that.

And we just needed to learn that I guess, patience, you know, he's going to learn this when he's ready. , not to push it. , we still reached out and got resources to help him or resources to. To see what we could do to help, , the process come along, like his language and speech, so he wouldn't have as many temper tantrums and can actually tell us what he wants and what he needs.

, so I would just say is to all the dads out there, just, just be patient, enjoy the journey. , they're going to be growing and learning so much every day. And, you know, this is all new to us. We can learn with them just as well. , and. [00:31:00] If we're patient with them, they'll be patient with us.

penney: Yeah. So having understanding about the process while also understanding what you talked about that journey, that the journey is going to look different for everyone.

It doesn't have to look like this chart or this view or this thing, but what the journey looks like for you.

All right. So the next one is what is one tip you would pass on to other dads?

david: Don't try to juggle the baby.

I've, luckily taken care of, , other small human beings. , which gave me a little taste of it because beforehand I didn't have much experience at all. And, , Tina. Thought it was really good to leave me alone with a child and I did okay. And luckily I was here, , , with Tristan, who's my sister in law, but she wasn't much help [00:32:00] and she was a good cheerleader.

, and the best advice I'd say is. Diaper changing isn't that scary? But at the same time I haven't, I haven't experienced a blown out so

johnny: It'll happen

joe: Yep,

johnny: I was worried about that because I'm not good around that kind of stuff like picking up dog poop I kind of gag a little bit but But now it's kind of just something that's, you just do every day, so it's not a big deal anymore. But I was terrified of poopy diapers, for sure. Probably, I'll blame my dad for that one, too.

penney: There you go.

So just realizing, , you can do it. It's gonna be, , learning, but you can figure it out. Yeah. Alright, Johnny, what's your tip? Number one tip you would give dads?

johnny: , kind of the same thing. It's more simple than you think. I, I [00:33:00] like... Kenzie's like very planned and stuff, and she read encyclopedias before we had the baby.

And she's like, you should probably read something, and I'm like, yeah, I'll read something. So I bought this like, I don't even think I finished it. I think it's called like the first two years or something. Diaper Dude? Diaper Dad? Diaper Dude? I can't remember. But , one of the first sentences in it is just, it says, , you're gonna be a new dad.

Advice is to just Chill out, dude. It's not all gonna be terrible. And, , I kind of took that to heart, and that's all I needed to read of that book.

Kind of, , I'm a worrywart and kind of anxious, but, , when this situation happened, it was kind of like, well, I'm just gonna take it a day at a time and not let it stress me out. And, , it does have its stressful moments, but once you learn it, It's a, it's, it's a cakewalk. It's really easy and it's fun.

So, number one tip is just don't stress your out, stress yourself out [00:34:00] too much before the baby comes. Hmm.

penney: So just have confidence in yourself and know that it's gonna be fun, it's gonna be hard, but it's okay.

johnny: Yes. . And , you can always, you always have people to reach out to for advice too.

janae: I really like hearing the joy of like, it's fun and I do feel like there is a little bit of that stigma of for dads.

It's like, , baby duty or whatever, but it's like, it's fun though. You, you, there is joy

johnny: in it. Oh, totally. Yes. Now, Kenzie has two kids.

penney: And you have someone to watch Disney movies with.

johnny: Heck yes, we're going to cry together when we watch them.

penney: Alright, Joe, what's your tip? What do you want to share with other dads?

I

joe: think the one thing that I always wanted was to have, from when I was a kid, My dad worked [00:35:00] so much that he wasn't really present. He'd come to like one or two things a year for my school stuff, but like he didn't even know I was on the swim team, and there was one thing I told myself that I would never do, and that would be I wanted to be present.

Whether it's, , night, nightmares at night, or if it's, , gymnastics, or, , every little thing that he wants to do. , I want to be there for, , and just kind of base my work life and stuff around that, , I have the mantra that I work to live, not live to work.

So I think because there's that stigma again, once again, that, , you're a man, provide, provide, provide, but you also need to balance that to be present in your son or daughter's life. That's how I've, I've realized that. , people ask me to do overtime, and I'm thinking, No, I don't need to do that.

I'd rather spend time with my son. Go to the park, or the [00:36:00] splash pad, or , just go to the store. , just little things that, , one day he won't want to go to the store with me. Or, one day he won't be holding my hand.

Sorry.

penney: It's okay to have emotions, Joe.

joe: And it's just, ,

just

joe: be present. I think that's the best thing. It's just be there. Be terrified, but be there. Because you will be scared. I mean, you're gonna be, I mean, the first poopy diaper I ever changed on my son was in the hospital and they don't warn you what that's like. It's like, and Heather's giggling because he won't stop pooping.

And I'm like, what am I supposed to do? She's like, well, just good luck. And I was like, okay. And I got through it. It was terrifying at the time, but looking back on it, it was one of the funniest things that had happened to me and stuff. So that's my advice is just be present and enjoy [00:37:00] every little bit you can.

penney: Like that being present. I also heard finding the balance, right, of, of being a dad and, and that work life balance is important or life work balance, putting that the other way. Yeah. And being present, , to be a dad.

All right. So , the next question is what are your top two ways of regulating your emotions as a dad? So two ways of, if you're starting to feel those big emotions come up, two things that you do to take care of you.

david: Um, when my emotions get high, especially when, helping babysit, I know taking a breath and, If at all possible, kind of step into another, another room and gather yourself, if that's possible. most of the time when I've helped Tina, babysitting, Tina's there to make sure that the... Children aren't going to follow me if I go into another room and start yelling and shouting.

Um,

david: [00:38:00] from, from what I experienced, those would be the two biggest things. I don't know how it would be, I can't necessarily walk away from the, from a child. , but that's what I got.

penney: That's your experience so far, is walk away, take a break, take a breath.

johnny: Johnny, what about for you? I guess, ...

I'll kind of get, I'll be mad about something that happened at work or something like that and I'll come home and vent to Kenzie about it. , and I, you kind of like, when you're kind of angry about something it releases that chemical in your brain to where you're not really thinking straight, right? So, I'll kind of be on like a, a rant about something and then I'll remember that like Lily's right next to us and then I'll look over and she's looking at me and I'm like, oh.

, so she kind of helps me regulate my emotions cause then I'm like, oh yeah. I should probably not be angry right now and try to calmly explain this to your mom. , because I don't want her to be feeling anxious that there's tension, right? So, I mean, the baby itself is what, , helps regulate my emotions, [00:39:00] I guess.

Because I'm more, I'm more conscious of it. When, when I start to get, you know, they're sad or mad or something, and then it comes out, and then you look, you're like, oh yeah, take a step back, don't act overwhelmed or mad in front of your kid, because I don't want to cause those, those, , those thoughts for her of anxiousness, I guess.

So, because I guess I saw that a lot with my parents, like when they argue and stuff, so I don't want, I don't want, , Lily to be exposed to that all the time. So it's just kind of like we keep saying take a breath, but actually take a breath, I realized helps because Kenzie told me about breathing techniques and all that, you know, I, I'm, I'm kind of like not into that stuff, but then I actually tried it and yeah, if you actually do breathe in through your nose and flit your chest all the way and breathe out, it actually calms you down.

It works. I do it at work all day long too. If something overwhelms me. So, [00:40:00]

janae: yeah, it's good to have those things that you can do

penney: anywhere.

johnny: Yeah. A little quick meditation you can do.

penney: Yes, awareness. I heard you talk about awareness, and I think that is powerful, right? It's hard to regulate emotions if we don't know what they are.

So really learning to be aware of what's happening in our bodies to know our emotions. It sounds like it's something that you've worked on and that you use, , to regulate emotions.

All right, Joe, your emotional regulation tips?

joe: Honestly, the, it's going to sound just like the other two, , is regulate your emotions. , the way I do that is to music. , So if I'm feeling overwhelmed, like I try and listen to more relaxing music lately, , a lot more like reggae music and just more, , uplifting type music that just kind of puts you in a mindset of, yeah, you had a crappy day, but that's, that's okay.

 And helps me process that tomorrow isn't going to be that way. , there's just. I think music is a big one for me, because I get, I, I have the luxury of having an hour [00:41:00] drive home, so if I had a crappy day at work, I literally just express my feelings in the car, so I try not to bring those emotions in the house, like leave work at work, and, and things like that, , yeah, if there was an extra hard day, then I might tell Heather about it, but I try and just keep it, Separate, you know, , taking a step back, taking a step away, , and sometimes you, like you said, you can't leave them as much as you'd like to.

You're like, oh, man, you're being so mean right now. I just want to just leave you right here on the couch, but I can't, but there are other times where, like, before Everest got a toddler bed, there was times where I would feel overwhelmed and I, I wouldn't know what else to do. So I would make sure that he was safe in his crib.

Have a show on and I'd walk away until he calmed down or I calmed down or, or both of us, just because at the time it wasn't when you start, , feeling overwhelmed, your logic [00:42:00] goes out the window. And that's when you start making mistakes, and then that's when you're, you start regretting what you've done.

So the best is to, to recognize that and to step away before that happens.

penney: Yeah, I love that you brought that up, Joe, that, , sometimes you can't walk away. You have to, or you have to find a way to do it safely. But as a parent, it, it, ... And sometimes that's harder if you're there alone and that it's okay to make sure they're safe and make sure you're safe. That's important. And I love that you listen to music as a, as an outlet for being able to channel those emotions and take time for you.

That's really

good.

penney: Okay. we're going to move into what we call our take two. So this is, , more about relationships and societal expectations. And our first question is what's your number one. Pet peeve around being a father in society. So societal views or societal opinions about fatherhood.

Number one pet peeve. [00:43:00]

david: Uh, I know for me it would still go back to that, to help dads cope would be to drink. and to throw in a second one real quick would be that dads are not supposed to show emotion. , those would probably be my two biggest things. , where I don't meet those two. I try not to show emotion.

And it doesn't work. I get more dramatic than anything and

johnny: I

david: am not a big drinker. So I don't feel those two pet peeves or the, the, the societal things that, Oh, dad's need to, it's okay that dad's drink to cope and like, no, it's, it's not okay for dads to drink to cope. and it should be okay for dads to show emotion.

Cause we're humans. And that's a very humanistic thing.

penney: Yes, absolutely. We're all born with them and they happen. So, everybody gets to have them. It's not gender specific. And, , healthy ways of coping instead of unhealthy ways of coping.[00:44:00] What about for you, Johnny? Two, , biggest societal pet peeves?

johnny: I guess one of them would be what a father has been portrayed to be expected to be.

as far as like, you know, main provider and doesn't Do any of the cleaning or any of the diaper changing or any of that? I feel like it's kind of changed now Because actually in our household Kenzie is the main income so we kind of have a balance of mom and dad Responsibilities, so I guess it's annoying to me in society that it's perceived that the woman does most of all the diaper changing and the feeding and the bathing and all that because It's actually, it's a team effort, and it actually really helps build that bond between you and your kid.

So, I guess that's kind of one of my annoying things, because... I guess the second thing would be, would tie into that, is the lack of having a support system. Cause my, my family's big, but most of, I'm, I'm the baby of my family, so all [00:45:00] of my older siblings have gotten their own families and moved away, so really the only support system we have as far as family would, would be either my dad, but he doesn't really know how to take care of a baby, or Kenzie's mom, but she lives in Ogden, so she's not here a lot.

so societal, I guess. It's annoying that there's not more of, like, a child care support system that the government provides or something, you know, for people who need the help. cause that was definitely within the first year of having Lily was finding, child care. We went through, like, six or seven babysitters, Just dealing with people who weren't reliable or would commit to something and then just flake on us, you know, so I guess Societal pet peeve child care should be something that's provided by the government or Be affordable [00:46:00] because it's like taking out a second mortgage pretty much.

penney: Yeah. I love that conversation around if you don't have family support, I think that's the, the vision or the well build a support system or family needs to help or, , that idea that you can just handle it all versus you can't and you need support and childcare is outrageous.

, it's a huge burden and trying to figure that out. I also was thinking about what you said around that. I think moms will talk about, you know, what it's like to change diapers, be up all night, have those conversations and have empathy in society. But I don't think dads do. I think there's a shift in dads being stepping up and being dads with less.

Change in societal supports and conversations around doing the same things and not getting that, wow, what was it like for you up all night again? And, and, , those challenges that the dads don't have the [00:47:00] support systems to have those conversations and the way how that would be a pet peeve as you guys are, are, , really paving new roads and creating new roles and new visions around being a dad as a generation.

I'm gonna, , off topic for just a minute, I... Worked on, , what it means to be a man with my master's thesis and have a, , a lot of, I've said for a long time, I can't wait till men have their uprising that, that women did with feminism and pushing back against societal expectations and societal norms.

And I can't wait till men do the same thing in the way that we're tired of fitting in a box and being told this is how we're supposed to show up in the world. And this conversation gives me hope that that's happening. And that you're, the three of you are leading that charge or in a part of that group that's speaking up and standing out.

So a little bit of a diatribe, apologize for taking up space with that. , but just want to say thank you for doing that because it [00:48:00] definitely needs to happen.

All right, Joe, your pet peeve around, , fatherhood in society.

joe: Well, honestly, the biggest one I'd have to say is the daggum gender roles. That society is placed on women and men separately, you know, we're not in the fifties anymore, and we need to cook, we need to clean, we need to do just as much house stuff as the women do, they're just as tired as we are, they have their own jobs, their own responsibilities and stuff, and if, there's times we balance, , who gets up with Everest in the night, , there's some nights I'll get two or three hours of sleep and go to work.

 That makes it so one of us has a good day at work and then it will switch. So it's not all, , one person doing all of the work. I tried to be, even when she was, when we were still, , bottle feeding, I would try and be up and supportive while she was bottle feeding because I knew how much sleep she was losing and I was just one little sacrifice that I could make so we could be on [00:49:00] the same page.

, the other one, ,

is what Dave said is, uh, keeping the, emotions inside. You know, I, I don't want my, I only saw my dad cry like twice in my entire life. That was once when he lost a puppy, and once in a funeral, and I want my son to realize that if he's having feelings that he can show them, there's times where I'll cry at a freaking commercial on TV, and Heather's like, are you seriously crying?

I was like, let me have emotions, you know, and, and it's so funny because I feel like sometimes, just just like you said, somebody to cry with. My wife is the opposite. She's like, you're crying again, you big boob. And I'm like, yeah, how are you? Aren't you crying? How are you so heartless? It's like, is your heart made of stone? Like, Oh, and you know, I want, I want that to always be something that, you know, my son is like, Oh, I feel like I need to cry.

I'm going to cry, . So I think those are my two pet peeves is just have balance, in gender roles [00:50:00] and to, have emotions, not bottle them up.

penney: Yeah. , just thinking what all three of you have spoken to is that, , I was just. Thinking of those comparison and gender roles to when women started in the workplace, there was a lot of, you know, you're needed because of the war effort kind of get out and do that.

Or, and I know that's happened in different phases, but that there was that feeling of unprepared, but this is now the expectation or the training wasn't there provided, but this is the expectation. And that's absolutely what the three of you are going through that, um, as you've talked about, nobody Taught you to change diapers, take care of babies, prepare bottles, balance the things that you are choosing to do and step into that role of being a dad.

And that really you're at the front line of change and, , really just honoring that and what you're going to pass forward. But really the. The place that you're at in that process of change in society, and that you'll, [00:51:00] you'll train the next generation, maybe not trained, but, but hopefully we are better about this is how you do it, regardless of your gender, you know how to take care of a baby and step into the role of being a parent and not feel so unprepared for that.

, as we do it different, hopefully through all the genders is my responsibility. And that is a female and as dads and moms that we do that different. So our last question is, where have you discovered the best support or advice on being a dad?

david: a little bit from my own dad. A little bit, not a lot. , listening to both Joe and Johnny is actually a lot of good advice. , I've known Joe for quite a long time and, , there's some good advice. , especially that he's had three years experience. , and, , Actually, with both, , when I watch, help Tina watch the kids, , that she, , babysits, , their dad does, , quite a bit of stuff for [00:52:00] them, and he's got a good bit of ice, And, , also some of the people I work with, , because I'm a high school teacher the teachers, , are more than happy to give me advice and give me their lessons and, and say, Hey, it'll be okay. And we also have a nursery at our school. So I get to talk to some of the parents. That are also students and experience what they go through.

So those were some of the places I found some of the best advice and support.

johnny: for me, it was. I, I have co workers who have kids too, so I got a lot of good advice from them because I've got a co worker who's got a five year old and then I've got another co worker who has a three year old.

So I got a lot of good advice from them. I actually ended up getting a lot of good advice from them. My wife, because she has a little brother, she's taken care of babies before. , so anytime I had something I was questioning myself on, I always had her to turn to. And then, [00:53:00] from my family, mainly, like, just my sisters.

Cause they, I have a sister that has five kids, and another I

found the best advice, in the family. And then, actually, I watched a lot of YouTube videos before. Lily got here because there's actually a lot of really good like dad YouTube channels I discovered so I watched a lot of those before Lily came and that helped a lot to to kind of ease my mind of how things were gonna go and actually get to get advice from dads that were in similar age to That have YouTube channels, so.

penney: Yeah, I wouldn't have thought to look, , YouTube channels and make those connections with other dads. That's great advice of places to go for support, and then it sounds like a lot of reaching out and asking questions. , putting yourself out there to, to talk about it. [00:54:00] Mm

joe: I'd have to say other dads like my, , my own father, you know, , I'd ask him sometimes, is this normal? Or what did you do? Cause I had one brother, his name's Garrett and he was the hardest baby of all babies I've ever experienced. He would literally cry from Brigham city to campus and it wouldn't stop.

Like nothing would soothe him. And then like when my mom would go to meetings and my dad had to watch him, he would cry the whole night. Until she got home. , so I'd ask him, like, you know, what do I do? He's like, just sometimes you just have to sit him down, make sure he's safe, walk away. Otherwise, you're gonna do something you're gonna regret and you can't go back from that.

Honestly, there's a lot of like people I follow on Facebook and stuff that like, I don't know if you guys have ever heard of Dude Dad, but I've followed his stuff for years and Yeah, it's pretty comical, but like, he's got some [00:55:00] serious stuff. Like he actually has some good advice on there and then you kind of get stuck in rabbit holes of, you know, other type of, , media influencers.

, see how they're doing it and, and see how they balance things. And then you kind of incorporate some of the stuff they do. Cause let's be honest. Some of the stuff that they do is not. You know, feasible for someone like me. So I'll, you know, pick and choose what they do to, , to know how to raise a son and to how to be a better dad.

penney: Gotcha. So, , reaching out, looking on social media, I know Johnny had brought up YouTube also. So it sounds like there's some social. The media following that can help with that support and change and then reaching out for advice from family and friends. Biggest parts of support with that. And then I think Johnny also brought up and Dave a little bit in your partner that it's okay to also ask them, what do you think?

, and how do I get support around that too? So our last section is we call it the spin the wheel. It's a body [00:56:00] question and, , we don't have the will cause we're virtual. You get to choose whether you want an even question or an odd question. So Dave, you get to go first, even or odd?

david: Well, I feel like a pretty odd person, so I'll

joe: take an odd question.

penney: So the odd question is, what is one way you are offering your buddy kindness, , in changes around being a dad?

david: Well, , that's a little tricky because this last year has been kind of a roller coaster with my body. , I've learned that I'm a type 2 diabetic, and so, , for, to offer my body kindness at this moment is almost any type of sugar.

. And at the moment, I'm on really good meds, so I can take a little bit of sugar. But that, that would be the body kindness. , a little bit of sugar and lots

johnny: of water.

penney: Good, so we're thinking about your nutrition and ways to fuel your body to be able to take care of yourself. Mm hmm. Gotcha. okay, what about for you, Johnny, even or odd?[00:57:00]

Let's do an even one. Okay, even one would be, how are you coping with the changes in your body that come from being a dad?

johnny: You know, honestly, I didn't really take care of my body before Lilly, and I'm not doing it still, so... I haven't really, uh, found any difference really. More that I'm just kind of more tired because I get a little less sleep sometimes.

But, uh, I should be more kind to my body. I think, uh, Kenzie highly suggests that all the time and tries to force me to eat vegetables. But, um, so that's kind of going to be a challenge. I guess, um, Lily's helped me too because she really likes fruits. So I cut up a lot of fruits for her and then I end up eating it too, so.

I guess having Lily is helping me be more kind to my body.

penney: That's good. I'm wondering if you're being, yeah, with your being tired, how are you taking care of your body while being exhausted from having a one year old and a

johnny: newborn? [00:58:00] By destroying my body with caffeine.

penney: I think you did say, um, stock up on energy drinks now, didn't you, earlier on?

johnny: No, I think that was someone

else. Oh, was that

johnny: Joe? Yeah, but yeah, I do, I do drink coffee every morning. And, uh, the caffeinated beverages definitely do help. Yeah, so that's how you're coping. Yeah, that's how I'm coping with it, yeah.

penney: So fueling your body with extra ways to get energy. Yeah. All right. What about for you, Joe?

Now you know what both of the options are. Do you want an even or an odd question? Oh, odd. Okay. So odd was what is one way you're offering your body kindness?

joe: Honestly, I've probably been more active this last six months than I think I've been in the last 10 years. just finding excuses to go outside. when it's a hundred degrees, it's kind of hard to do. So the fact that I've been doing better that way is just. In my opinion, I feel like it's doing me a lot of, a lot of good.

feel like I'm [00:59:00] getting more energy as the time goes on. and then I'm actually taking advice from my doctors and taking supplements that I've never taken before. like vitamin B12 and vitamin D and stuff like that. other things is I have low testosterone, so I take testosterone injections every week.

And that's been helping me have the energy and the, level headedness to keep up with my boy, because he is wild.

penney: They require a lot of energy. Yes, they do. Yeah, and I love that idea of taking care of your health. Around what does my body need and how do I fuel it and take care of it in a different way to give myself the energy that I need to take care of a toddler.

All right. Our last one, this is called our rapid fire question, which means usually Janae and I just spitball a question, but we decided not to do that to you. So the question is what's your favorite part about being a dad?

johnny: My favorite part

david: about being a dad or going to be a dad is. someone that I hope will find the stuff funny that I find funny [01:00:00] because Tina's mm-hmm Tina's humor and my humor aren't exactly aligned. And some of the stuff I find funny she doesn't find funny and some of the stuff she finds funny, I don't necessarily find funny and.

From my experience with little kids, they normally get, like, both their parents humor.

So that's what I'm excited

penney: for. Excited for having someone that maybe can have your same sense of humor, same reflected parts in you. Yeah. That's cute. I love that.

johnny: for me, it's, just really exciting to be able to essentially relive your childhood. Cause I think, I never really grew up, I just got bigger and hairier. But, um, it's on good site. I'm just excited that I'm a, I'm a bigger kid that has a kid now, essentially. Cause I just, I still like to go look at all the toys down the toy aisle, even before Lily was here.

So, I think it's really gonna, it's gonna be amazing being able to like, see through her eyes. All the [01:01:00] childhood stuff that I like to do, like, and we live pretty close to toughest parks and, you know, fun land just got refurbished. Like it's going to be fun to just see her eyes through all of that stuff.

I'm excited for all of that, all the activities, all the toys and. Just playing, so.

penney: So your favorite part of being a dad is being able to check back into the own, your own excitement and joy around being a child and, and yeah, I get that. Oh yeah,

johnny: oh yeah. I keep seeing all these toys that come up on my feed.

Man, those algorithms, they'll get ya. I buy one toy, and then they show me all this stuff. I'm like, oh, I used to have one of those when I was a kid in the 90s. Now I need to get one for Lily, you know.

Yeah.

penney: That makes sense. What about for you, Joe?

joe: You know, I think the best part about being a dad,

the first thing is I love snuggling him. Oh my gosh. He is the snuggliest little boy ever. And [01:02:00] I'm going to take advantage of that as long as possible. . I'm also a kid at heart, there's been times before we had Everest that I'd do stuff in the store and Heather's like, what did you just do? Like, there was one time, there was this little girl, this dad was shopping for produce, and the produce is always by like, the flower department, and where the balloons are.

And then he parked his daughter underneath the balloons, and she's all reaching for one. And I got a thought. And I was like, this would be funny. So I handed her one and I walked her corner and the dad turns around and sees that she had grabbed, that she had one and he's all look around. I mean, cause she was like two feet away from grabbing these balloons and I'm laughing.

Like I'm in this aisle, just laughing my guts out. Heather's like, what did you do? And I pointed and she goes, no, I was like, oh yeah, so stuff like that,

penney: like you probably made that little girl's

joe: day. Yeah. Her dad was upset, but I didn't care, but [01:03:00] I mean, that's, that's the type of stuff that I look forward to, you know, just being a kid at heart and just, you know, having fun.

Like I'm the dad that runs around my, with my son at the splash pad. I'm the only dad in the splash pad and that's okay. You know, I've been, you know, it's so funny because there's been times where like at the park, someone is trying to turn on their bike, adjust something and they see me and they're like, he could help me out.

He's huge. And I'm like, okay, let's help. Let's press the button over here and then I'll go back and stuff. And, and I think that's the best part about being a dad is just. Reconnecting with your younger self, you know, and, and realizing that you can have an imagination again, because I think it, your imagination kind of dies as you get older, not dies, but goes dormant.

And when you have kids kind of reopens that. Heck yeah.

penney: Yeah, I agree. It's really cool. Yeah, I definitely have experienced that and, as being a parent and love that, that you're, that [01:04:00] experience comes out. And I think it, it really adds to being a parent and that fun thinking outside the box imagination creates such a magical, beautiful world for a child.

So honoring, , you guys doing that, that is our last question. Thank you very much. Cause I would like to say that, , for showing up and being vulnerable and sharing your experiences and, , supporting other fathers out there really honoring and your journey and being dads and how you're doing that different than how it's been done in other generations.

Thank you for that. Yeah. It was really fun

janae: to hear everyone's perspectives when I was writing these questions with Penny before we. Um, when we were in the planning phase of this podcast episode, I was really like, do we do different questions for the dads versus the moms? How are they going to answer these?

But it was really fun to hear your perspectives and

penney: get a little bit of an

janae: insight of what fatherhood is like.

Absolutely. [01:05:00] For our listeners of this episode, we have one more episode coming out in our parenting, little trifecta here. So the next time you will hear from us, we'll all be in one big group. So we're going to have the moms and the dads and we'll be asking them just a few last little questions. And so you can look forward to that episode next.

So thanks for joining us and we will, ,

penney: check in with you