Ep. 22 Sharing the Mental Load: Rewriting the Rules of Relationship Responsibility
Welcome to episode 22 where hosts, Janae and Penney, discuss the concept of mental load, the cognitive effort required to manage situations and complete tasks, with specific emphasis on the mental load associated with the holidays. Key points include how mental loads are assigned and the impact on individuals and their relationships. We suggest ways to share and manage the mental load to reduce stress, fatigue, and burnout.
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Ep. 22 Sharing The Mental Load of the Holidays
Janae: [00:00:00] Welcome to untangling relationships, a conversation between a counselor and a yoga teacher, a gen X-er and a millennial and a mother and daughter join us as we explore the ins and outs of relationships with your hosts, Janae and penny. Hi and welcome. Welcome. We're going to be talking today about the. The overall topic of mental load and what that means, but also with a little bit of a. Emphasis on mental load around the holidays.
Janae: Holiday flair. Yeah. There can be a holiday flare of mental load for sure. That's a good way of putting it. , so that's what we're going to be talking about today. We're going to start off just with the definition so we can all be on the same page. The definition that I'm going to be using is coming from an article from the science of people.
Janae: And we'll be sure to link that article in the show notes for anyone who wants to read a little bit more in-depth with that. [00:01:00] So this definition says that mental load refers to the cognitive effort required to complete a task or manage a situation. It includes the actual work that needs to be done and all of the mental preparation and organization that goes into completing the task. So I think a good way of phrasing that just in more layman's terms is like, if you have something like a task that needs to be done, there's also a lot of. Behind the scenes, mental preparation that's happening around that task, the mental to do list.
Janae: Yes. The mental to do list that goes around that. And the article talks specifically about the mental load that could come into play around hosting a dinner party, which. Again, around the holidays, that's quite frequent or quite a popular thing that people will be. , doing. And so, , we can kind of talk [00:02:00] through all of the. Extra little cognitive labor. Pieces of tasks that go into hosting a dinner party. So the first one is anticipating people's needs.
Janae: So thinking about people's dietary restrictions. and then identifying options to meet those needs.
Penney: What, how much food is going to be eaten?
Janae: People like, yes. , What meal is going to be best for the holiday in particular or timing for the event in shopping for it. and then
Penney: we've got also the financial strain of that.
Penney: If you're asking people to bring things or you have your own financial worries, you have to also identify foods or a menu that can accommodate
Janae: that. Yeah. And there's, , one of the definitions here is just monitoring progress. So tracking, shopping, invitations, guests, meal prep. Um, et cetera. So there's a lot of things in there.
Janae: , and then I would add onto that, like, [00:03:00] Cleaning the house prepping like the kitchen and. Even your outdoor decor and stuff, like all of that kind of stuff, it gets lumped into hosting a dinner party. So. Even things that you don't think about, like where's everybody gonna park? Where's everybody gonna sit?
Penney: Are we going to have small children? Do we need to accommodate for that? I mean, there's a lot of pieces to that. And then there's all the communication back and forth between you and the people who are coming or you and the people who are bringing other dishes. And you're handling all of that too. Yeah. And I also think of it, depending on what level of party you're doing place settings, where people going to sit, what kind of conversations are you going to bring up?
Penney: What kind of conversations do you need to avoid? Uh, I think there's a lot of pieces to that.
Janae: So the topic is like, Understanding that when you're describing a task, it could be, [00:04:00] oh, we're just, you're in charge of hosting the dinner party. Whereas that broken down into smaller tasks and all the mental load that comes into that is like, 25 different things that actually goes into that one thing. Or 50 to 100. Yeah. Yeah. On it on how granular it gets for sure.
Janae: So again, reading from this article, it talks about without having efficient systems and routines And support around mental load. It can cause an increase in stress, fatigue and burnout, reducing performance and health related issues. And. it also says, unfortunately, most of those who struggle with mental load are women and mothers, partly due to societal pressures and expectations that are put on women to be the primary caregivers. And I think that that's definitely. A prominent thing that I've noticed within our culture and. Yeah.
Janae: When we're talking about who's hosting a dinner party, I think. Most people imagine a [00:05:00] woman doing that or being the one responsible for that.
Janae: So that's kind of the definition that we're working with in the, The idea of what we're talking about with. With the topic of mental load. And we can now get into some more specific questions and start talking about this a little bit more from our own personal experience. Sure. Um, so penny, why don't you start us off with the first question?
Janae: How does mental load impact you on a daily basis?
Penney: Oh, I think I carry a lot of mental load on a daily basis because I have a lot of roles, right. The preparing for Christmas, being a mom and a grandma now. And, uh, Running a business, running several businesses and having to keep track of clients and what's going on with them and what needs to be done from a business aspect, being the. financial person of my family, what bills need to be paid when needs to be done when he used to get missed.
Penney: In fact, I was driving to Thanksgiving. This is a [00:06:00] fun story. And, uh, got pulled over and the. KA asked for the registration. And I have a registration envelope that I keep in the truck. With all of the trailers, the four wheelers and the truck registration in it. Cause we're taking anything.
Penney: We're taking all of it. And it wasn't there. I don't know where it's at. Still can't find it. So I got a ticket for having the registration, which expired two years ago, but I didn't know. Um, because I didn't get the notification on it. So that was another thing of like, I dropped that from my mental load when I make sure that all six of the four wheelers, both of the trailers, the two side by sides and the truck and the cars, all three of them I'll get registered every year.
Penney: And I dropped the ball on that one. So it's those little mental load things that are there all the time that when they get dropped, it's a big deal. It. It can cause a lot of stress. , so I think it's not just knowing that those things are there all the time along with, , definitely with the holiday for me. , family tradition is for the grandma to make stockings.
Penney: And I have a new grand baby that came last year. And so [00:07:00] making sure that that's done and ready and sent, and that the holidays are decorated the way they need to planning for the business Christmas parties. Are we getting to. The Nutcracker tickets bought and ready to go on time. And there's a lot of mental load.
Penney: So I would say, how does it impact me every day? I don't know. I think. Uh, for me, it's having the mental running list and needing to get things checked off. Or when I think of something, meaning to do it immediately. Um, I'm not a great list person because I find lists. Sometimes feel overwhelming or just writing the list feels overwhelming.
Penney: So I definitely carry it mentally. sometimes it can impact sleep less. So for me, I'm more of a stay up at night and get the mental load list done. Should I do think it adds to a feeling of burnout and exhaustion and. Times when you just want to crawl in bed and say, I can't carry one more thing.
Penney: Or one more thing is put on you when you feel the absolute amount of overwhelm that comes from that of a I can't hold one more piece. It just doesn't fit anywhere in the filing system. Or as I said, things get [00:08:00] lost in the filing system. Like the truck. Um, so. Yeah, I think things can get missed. Where things get lost or there's a collapse around them.
Janae: I also think that. Until we had the vocabulary to be able to talk about it. That was just like a part of being the role as the primary caregiver within a household.
Janae: Like it was just expected. And then until you've been within that role, you don't really have a good understanding of. All of the components and pieces to what all that means. So then it might be to another person within your house. Oh, I just need help with this one extra thing. And you're already at your capacity, even if they don't. Quite understand. How you're at your capacity or what that means.
Janae: And. It might feel like one more thing, but really it's 10 more things. So it's interesting to have. [00:09:00] This newer conversation. Just within social media and everything where it's starting to talk about it and give it a definition in some more clarity around how these kinds of things impact us.
Penney: Yeah, I think I know we're going to talk about this a little bit later on about how to talk with your, your partner.
Penney: But I do think as couples and as partners, we don't do a really good job of sharing this. , I've noticed definitely in my own relationship that. , I get very stuck in my own mental load, being the primary caregiver and having a lot of responsibility around the house that I start to get in that place of I'm carrying so much and my partner doesn't carry anything. And then when we check in with our partner around their mental load, , my partner has an amazing amount of mental load has, is just very different from mine.
Penney: His was more like, how do I help the gutters do well to keep the ice off? And how do I, you know, take care of the vehicles or. Uh, what does this look like for the car or what kind of, I think it was like, what [00:10:00] harness do we need for a new light in the car? And I have found that as we're both carrying these really heavy mental loads, if he asks me and I start to go through my mental list, if he feels very quickly overwhelmed, And if he goes through his mental list, I feel very quickly overwhelmed.
Penney: Or we have a tendency to discount him of like, well, I don't know why that's such a big deal or, , where we can also step into that place of feeling the need to solve it, instead of just being able to hear it and to share the burden and just knowing that somebody else is aware of the burden. , and so I think that, yeah, we might be planning.
Penney: What does it look like to do the holiday party, but I mean, they're possibly planning something that's even different around that, of what does it look like to clear the imply the snow, or make sure that there's no ice on the sidewalks? Or how am I going to have a conversation with this person? Or what am I going to wear that I think they're sharing their own mental load too.
Penney: And we need to get better about having conversations around that. And, and how our mental load impacts them or how we can share that just in a verbal way.
[00:11:00]
Janae: Yeah for me for this question, I think the easiest way of seeing how does the mental load impact me on a daily basis is just the. Cognitive overwhelm of it. Like, it just becomes like,
Janae: It's a lot.
Penney: I think it's a cognitive overwhelm, but also in my relationships, I'm saying it creates distance. So not only does it help cause me to feel overwhelmed, but then I start to pull away. In my relationships and also in a way, isolate myself in my mental load because you're carrying so much, you can't take on anything else.
Penney: So we start to create distance. and resentment even I think in relationships.
Janae: I would agree with that. I think it spreads even into other relationships where my partner has asked if people can come into town and like stay with us or traveling, or like hosting people and. It has [00:12:00] become like a.
Janae: It was an interesting shift of trying to decide how. Do we want to. Go about those kinds of situations where it's like, I don't feel comfortable with people just randomly dropping in and staying like overnight without at least a day or two notice ahead. And he had a hard time understanding that because to him, it's just people show up and then we figure it out as they get here. And make all the preparations or it's for me, it's like, The pressure that I feel to have my house in a certain way and looking a certain way and having the guest bedroom set up without them there monitoring how I'm setting everything up. Um, is important to me.
Janae: And so. Trying to get on the same page around. That was interesting when we first. Moved in and had extra space for people to come and visit. And I do think that there were points in times where it came [00:13:00] across more as like, I don't want to see your family, or I don't want people around when that was not the case. So it was creating distance between us and other family members when it was like, actually, I don't care if they're here, I enjoy having them here. I just need X amount of time of mental preparation for what I have to do and all the shifting of tasks that needs to happen.
Janae: And then all the physical preparation that needs to happen around it. And I think he is really good at helping with the physical preparation of like getting beds set up and that kind of stuff, but just the mental. Shift that has to happen for me knowing that that's coming up. Needs some buffering time.
Janae: Yeah.
Penney: Understandable. I know with my own, the whole guest bedroom thing. Right. I'm. For some reason, I think with kids moving out and having extra space did this whole, how to create the perfect guest bedroom. You know, homesick garden. Perfect. And. Uh, I think my partner has a hard time understanding that as soon as the [00:14:00] guest leaves, I prepped the guest bedroom from, you know, spraying lavender or whatever the smell is on the sheets and to the having everything look perfect.
Penney: So if somebody does pop in, that's one thing I don't have to have on my mental load, cause I'm already done. And if he's downstairs watching television, he gets tired. He'll just go lay in the bed and sleep. And when I come down and see that I need to rewash sheets and reprep this room, it adds to my mental load.
Penney: And so it's a good conversation to have around why that's important and why that sacred space. And maybe he can lay on the couch instead of in the bed, perhaps, but. Um, but it's interesting. Around that, of having those conversations about why that creates. Feelings in relationships and having people come is, yeah, it definitely can.
Penney: You can start to dread having family visit instead of the joy of having people there. I
Janae: know we've talked about. Between me and him and you and I were talking about this when we decided to do this topic around, why there's that pressure? And it, [00:15:00] it definitely feels like a societal thing of like, Who's getting judged.
Janae: If all of these things aren't done correctly. It's definitely the woman of the household. And as much as I would love for that to slowly start to change, I do think it is slowly starting to change, but it's still, that's still a societal expectation and I still feel judgment around that. And I'm already. I already feel like I'm combating a lot of judgment around other quote, unquote feminine roles that I don't. Live up to for certain members of his family and even of my family and things.
Janae: So having other things where it's like, I'm not meeting these other expectations already feels really hard. Yeah. And so. Yeah. It's, it's hard when things like that happen and it's like, well, why is this a big deal? Like, why is it a big deal? If I lay in the bed, it's like, well, because if people come and it's not ready, you're not getting judged for it.
Janae: I am sure I'm the one getting like the pushback around it. Yeah, [00:16:00] that's hard. I
Penney: think it's also checking in on expectations around that. If the nightstand is imperfect, there isn't a place for people to put their change. The chargers are not lined up with the right plugs in because I want to make sure there's iPhone chargers and Android chargers next to the bed.
Penney: And that there's a lamp and that. All of that's working. And then he goes down and says, oh, there's an extra charger. I need one and takes it right. I think it's maybe just checking in also on the need for expectations that you think guests really care. That I think we can push it over the top of also what is the guest's expectation versus where maybe for him, it's like, well, they're coming and they're going to stay in the bed.
Penney: And why is that a big deal? and so I think it's also being able to maybe have some perspective and sometimes their lack of carrying them to load can help give us some perspective.
Janae: Yeah, I think it can be a moment in time in a conversation where you can say, okay, Have I gone too far down the Martha Stewart rabbit hole.
Janae: Or do I feel [00:17:00] justified in wanting these things? And R I think what comes, what breeds that is like a deep care for the people who are coming into your homes, which is a great place in authentic place to be starting from. I also think. I have visited places where that care has not been placed for me to stay somewhere.
Janae: And that does not feel good. And so you don't want to do that to someone else. but yeah, I think as it opens up the conversation of being able to say how much of this is something that people do care about and that I care about having done when I go somewhere else. And how much of it is maybe just. Extra fluff that really doesn't quite need to happen. Or even happened perfectly. Yeah.
Janae: Yeah, for sure. So our next question is how can you start to notice where you're holding a lot of mental load? Um, and this is kind of a prequel to the next question where we can start to talk about how you can start sharing the mental load with your partner or other members of your family, or [00:18:00] unloading a little bit of it.
Janae: Like we were talking about with the last example of maybe saying. Uh, why does this need to be on my mentor? Is this a weird expectation? I'm putting on myself. So Before those conversations can even happen. We have to start by just realizing where we're carrying a lot of it at. penny, if you want to start us off here again,
Penney: Sure.
Penney: I would say some of, uh, clinical training or, I mean, Doesn't happen during your master's program, but after a lot of things happen after your master's program, through the master's program, that there's a lot of talk around burnout. And one of the conversation around that is if you start to. Have the thoughts come up when you're driving, when you're sleeping, before you go to bed, when you're trying to take quiet time, if you're thinking about clients or you're thinking about business things, you're thinking about. that rehearsal of things. that's a good place to start noticing where you're holding a lot of mental load.
Penney: When I come into yoga, we do yoga three times a week. And if I can't let go of something and it's just staying with me as I'm trying to be mindful and get [00:19:00] into that space. I know that I'm carrying around a lot of mental load around whatever that thing is. And then I have to evaluate if that's something that I need to let go of, or if that's something that I need to address immediately or how I need to evaluate that.
Penney: But it's really taking that mindful moment to say, what am I carrying? What is rehearsing? for me, that's the training moment of okay. I'm noticing, and I need to take care of that. Hmm.
Janae: I love that. That is so interesting. because I definitely noticed that within myself of. Different things that when I'm trying to go to bed at night, it's on repeat in my head and I cannot let go.
Janae: Or I am strategically planning. Every minute of the next day that's happening. And yeah, that can definitely be impactful. and a good way of. Being able to say. Oh, yeah. Okay. This is a red flag. Yeah,
Penney: that means I'm carrying the mental load around that, that I'm not able to set it down. So either when I need to write it down and agree to re address it in the morning, I need to deal with it right then, or I [00:20:00] need to let go of it.
Penney: But that's that's to me as I've been training my own brain or paying attention. That's what I know. That's a mental load that I'm carrying.
Janae: I think something that came up for me around this question would be noticing if you start holding resentment. Around that task or around other people, quote, unquote not doing their part of that task.
Janae: That can be a sign. Uh, really quick sign of, oh, okay. I'm maybe holding too much of this if it's starting to cause resentment towards other people or towards the task itself. Like with my example of people coming in. We would start to cause some resentment of like, gosh, Um, irritated that these people are just dropping in and I'm having to drop everything and figure all this stuff out on the fly. And what really helped was then. Being able to realize, oh, okay. I don't want to feel like a angry person towards these people. It is just the mental load that is [00:21:00] causing this irritation.
Janae: And then how can I unload a little bit of that? Let go of some perfectionism around it. So yeah, it really got the ball rolling with that, but it started with me noticing, oh, I'm holding a lot of anger and resentment towards this situation. That I wouldn't normally hold anger and resentment around.
Penney: So is that evaluating the mental load around having people calm or is that evaluating the, what mental load am I already carrying that this one thing puts me over the top because if we're talking about daily mental load, You're already at your capacity. I thought that puts you over the top. So then what is it that I'm carrying every day?
Penney: That makes one thing, the tipping point.
Janae: That's a good question. I think it's both. I think that if you're already at your mental cognitive capacity and adding something like that on top of it feels like. The straw that breaks the camel's back. I agree that that is a great sign that maybe you're carrying too much. And there needs to be a re-evaluation within your [00:22:00] partnership, or if you are living by yourself and you're feeling this, that might be a re-evaluation of your job expectations or. Maybe some. Issues with perfectionism and self criticism and things like that.
Janae: That, yeah. That needs to be evaluated. So, yeah, that's. That's a good point. Yeah. Being able
Penney: to evaluate both of those. What am I curing every day? So that small things create the tip.
Janae: Yeah. What can you put down to. We need a little bit more space for those unexpected things that come up because they do come up and they will come up. Yeah.
Janae: So
Penney: being able to have a mental load so that we can bring on extra stuff as important or creating shifts around that. As we're having this topic, we probably ought to talk about reality of how do I notice when mental load starts coming up? I think I do a lot from day to day to check in on that, but my body is really good at telling me. When my mental load is too much, when it gets big enough, I lose my voice.
Penney: My body is really good and it seems to happen usually around January. Although I've had a few years where this hasn't happened, so I want to consider it a [00:23:00] success that I lose my voice. I can't talk. and where that's what I do for a living. And it started about the time I started therapy. I think it's a really strong message from my body that says, Hey, maybe you're carrying too much and you need to find ways to balance and. Great moments of self care and let some things go.
Penney: however, I'm extremely resilient. So I just whisper in session and just keep on going so full my body there don't I, I don't let it win. So then when I do that, my body gets even more creative and I break out in hives and end up needing to go to the ER, in order to manage that. So I just think if we don't pay attention to it, Our body tends to speak louder and louder until it finally gets our
Janae: attention. I would definitely agree with that. We did a few episodes, probably 10 episodes ago.
Janae: All about the, um, mapping, the nervous system. This is a. Uh, connecting topic, I think to that one where we're talking about. Being in a chronic [00:24:00] source of, or chronic state of nervous system activation in stress. And a small thing can push me over if I'm thinking about this personally from the like, okay.
Janae: I'm kind of balancing between the top of middle of my ladder and I'm a little bit stressed, but then I'm okay. And then I'm a little shit and then I'm okay. But then it's. The mental load gets more and more and more. It pushes me more into that chronic stress, middle of the ladder. fight flight. And then if something else big drops or I feel a lot of self criticism around something that I dropped. it shoots me straight down to the very bottom and then it becomes a. Extreme overwhelm.
Janae: Um, I'm shut down for days or hours, depending on news. Usually days. And then it's like trying to climb your way back out of that hole of like feeling numb, overwhelmed. Every little task is like, it feels too much. If I do something [00:25:00] wrong or something wrong goes. Happens then it's like I'm crying or feeling emotionally frustrated when. Little things that I usually were like, oh, well, that's fine.
Janae: Like, we'll figure it out. Become like devastating
Penney: things. Sure. Yeah, I would say just remembering it is about safety, right? Our nervous system is about safety. When we start to think about all the things that we have to do in order to be enough and to stay out of that place of shame or. To show up and have safe relationships or to be safe in the world and be secure in our place that it does create a feeling of unsafety and fear within our bodies.
Janae: Yeah. I'm glad you brought that up. So much of this conversation is really connected to that. Hustling for your worth, feeling innate enoughness or not within your relationships, within your roles within your life. And so yeah, when you're, when you drop the ball or it feels like another task is added onto your plate, and you feel like you're already struggling to hold [00:26:00] space for everything that you do have, and that is specifically attached to your worthiness. Your stakes just got 10 times higher. Yeah, absolutely.
Janae: So, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'm glad you brought that up. Hm. Yeah, that's impactful. So the next. Section or the next kind of. Part of this is how you can start. To flip the script with your partner or other members of your family. depending on what your living, living situation is like. How do you start to talk about the mental load, whether it's like, you just want to share it to get a little bit off your chest or off your mind, or it's like one of the situations where. Okay.
Janae: I'm holding. Too much of this and it needs to be, , divvied out or shared more.
Penney: Yeah. So as Janae and I were preparing for this, , I have a different view of this and maybe we can both share our views of this, where I agree with the sharing or divvying out [00:27:00] while also recognizing I think we all share some mental load. And it just looks different to each one of us at the things I worry about versus what my partner does. That also, I think we have to be willing to let go of control.
Penney: And I think control is a big part of this. And if I tell my partner, Hey, I need you to prep the guestroom as we're talking about guestroom, right? And he goes down and prep the guestroom, but it is not to my standards and it does not fit what I think the guestroom needs to be prepped to. Can I let go of control of that?
Penney: I can tell you in my whole body right now, the idea of asking my partner to prepare the guestroom is never going to happen. The pillowcases are not going to be right. The Duvet isn't going to be straight. It may not be the sheets that I want because knowing who the guests are, I know certain guests like certain sheets.
Penney: So I make sure that those are the ones on the bed, um, or. Uh, I don't know, a hundred things that are not the way that I think they're going to need to be. Right. And so I don't know that that's something I could let go of control of. So I, and there's a hundred things on my list. That [00:28:00] maybe that would be okay with that.
Penney: We don't let go of control of. So I think if we're going to divvy it out first, we have to say, can we let go of control of this? Can I accept the way the person that I'm giving it to can do it? And could I be okay with what that looks like or what that is? or am I going to say, Hey, can you do this?
Penney: And then I'm going to be critical or unhappy that it's not done my way, because I do think that's often what happens. Well also, can I have the, the grace to also be able to ask first, what is your mental load and what is going on for you before I dumped mine on them and expect them to dump their stuff in order to take care of mine. But I think there has to be conversations around.
Penney: What is your mental load? Where are you at with this? What do you have already going on? Because I may not be aware. one of the couples skills that comes up that maybe this is a good time to share is called the stress reducing conversation that Gottman's recommend where every night you sit down with your partner and you do that kind of data dump of here's what's on my mind today.
Penney: Here's what's going on. And I think part [00:29:00] of the beauty of that is being able to share this mental load. And know what is happening in your partner's world? Like be a part of it. What is mental load? Are they carrying around work and around relationships and around just life in general so that we're aware of what they're at. So, if we are asking them to share or to take part of ours, that we know that they're in a place that they can or, that we can have a shifting around that. Some of my thoughts.
Janae: I think that a big. Pro to having those kinds of stress, reducing conversations every single night is in so many of the couples that we work with. And it's something that comes up a lot. And in the couples work that I've done with my partner, it comes up a lot of like your holding information back or withholding information about stresses or things that are on your mind. Out of protection of the other person. And they might be holding back information out of protection towards you. And what that can start to do is create distance in isolation from each other.
Janae: Like we were talking about towards more of the [00:30:00] beginning of the podcast. And so. Saying. We're going to talk about this. It's not going to be anyone's fault and you don't have to protect each other from. Yourself or protect each other from the realities of life that you are working through, because both of you have agreed to work through those realities together.
Janae: That's what it means to be in a partnership. So I think that that's a great place for these kinds of conversation flips to start is during those conversations, the stress, reducing conversations. I also want to tack on to another thing that you talked about with the, is this something that I'm willing to let go of? Perfectionism or certain expectations around. I think that there's, there's two distinct thoughts that I'm having around this.
Janae: One of them is, is this something that we call this within the business? Um, and we got it from Brene brown work paint [00:31:00] done. Is this something that you feel like you could walk your partner through and give them clear and concise directions on what expectations you would like to be met while also going through mentally and saying. Here's the top things of how I want this to mean that, and in the ways that I wanted them to be met. Everything else that doesn't fall within that when I'm not doing it, it doesn't necessarily matter. So it might be a sorting of tasks of this is something that's easy to delineate out. This is something that maybe I'm always going to do because it can't be, or it's higher on that. Expectation or priority list for you mentally? For whatever reason. Right. I feel like this also really starts to relate to the Gottman exercise around dreams within conflict.
Penney: Yeah. Yeah, it can, if it's a perpetual issue. I still think remembering when we're doing stress, reducing conversations that I think the beauty of [00:32:00] that in that format is that you're not trying to solve the problem. Right. It's really just a dump. So I'm not listening to my partner's mental load thinking, oh, what of this do I need to take to make things easier and protect him? And he's not doing that for me.
Penney: We're both just listening. And so then if I am feeling overwhelmed in my mental load, I know where they're out and then I can say it at the end of the conversation. The next question is, is this something that you want help or support around? And then you can say yes or no. So it kind of sets us up to be able to share that mental load and to be able to paint done.
Penney: Well, also realize in your partner can go back and say, I. I don't know if that's part of done for me and maybe we can have compromise around what that done looks like to be able to let go of it. And. And allow that to be handled in a different way.
Janae: Yeah, and I love that you can start to look at these things as. Oh, maybe you're not being nitpicky around these things just because you're in nitpicky control, freak person. Right because none of us are, [00:33:00] but being able to say, oh, there's a wider arching dream that is, um, leading this. That it's pushing it for you to want to have a welcoming home for your kids to come back to and making sure everyone feels comfortable and safe within that home.
Janae: And that's a huge part of your identity as the mom that you are. And so being able to find. Understanding and common ground around that before you start down the conversation of like, here's why I have those expectations is because of this bigger overarching thing. Yeah. I know we've
Penney: talked before in one of the family values that I've always held is that home needs to be a soft place to land.
Penney: Whether you live there full-time or whether this is where you're coming back to visit. So for me, having a soft place to land means you're coming into your little cozy nest where you know that you're welcome and loved, and your needs are being met from the second. You walk in the door that that's. Part of that for me.
Penney: So you're right in a dreams with a conflict that would be part of that, where that is [00:34:00] also true for my partner, that he wants that to be a safe place, but that looks different for him.
Janae: Yeah, some. Some interesting. Starts or points. That need to be met before that conversation. Yeah, really gets to the mental load part of that conversation. Right. There's so much on digging and other things that need to be unwrapped before. The actual cognitive delineation of tasks happens. Sure. Which makes this conversation a little bit more, um, complicated and, and in need of a lot of nuance. Which is great for a podcast, but
Penney: I think mental load is isn't it there's so many nuances and pieces to it of why do I choose to add this to my mental load?
Penney: And why am I choosing to carry it? I. I mean, if you look at it as like you're moving or carrying things on your truck, right. I'm not going to put it in my truck and carry it around. Especially if I have to look at. We used to do this exercise all the time, growing up [00:35:00] LDS. And we would talk about going across the Plains and you have your hand cart, right?
Penney: So you have this hand part and you can only put X amount of pounds in it. What do you put in it and what do you not put in it? And what do you have to leave out? And, and if your grandma's silver is going to mean you don't carry in a flower to feed your family, you're probably going to leave the silver behind, right. And so I think about that, that same thing with the mental load.
Penney: If I'm choosing to put it in my hand, Carter, I'm choosing to put it in my mental load. When I know I have, uh, a finite amount of space to be able to do that, it must be important to me or it wouldn't be there. Or I really need to take a minute to evaluate why this is important to me and, and to have those conversations.
Penney: But I do think we wouldn't carry them unless they were important to us. So there is probably a lot of nuance to that for us to discover with ourselves and to discover for our partner about why that's important. Like my partner has spent hours doing the gutters at our house and has revised them. At least three, maybe four times.
Penney: And there've been many moments during this process where I have thought this is completely ridiculous. I'm not sure why we just took it down again so we [00:36:00] can restart again. And the whole thing behind that for his, his view of care for the family and making sure that when I go out to my shop, which is where I do my thing, that there's not ice on the ground for me.
Penney: And then that's a safe place for me to be able to go, to be able to take care of myself because usually I'm barefoot and I don't, you know, right. I'm running out there barefoot to go have space in my shop and he wants to make sure that that's a safe. Uh, trip for me without ice and without snow. And then I'm not going to be uncomfortable or it's not going to flood.
Penney: So he's carrying a lot of mental load around this where I'm like, oh my gosh, just put up gutters who cares? And if it drips and there's a little bit of ice, it doesn't matter. So for him, you're right. There's a lot of dreams about what it means for him to be a good partner and for him to take care of me that I don't see unless we have those conversations.
Penney: So why is he choosing to have gutters in his mental load for three years? When I think it's ridiculous because it's important to him. But I don't understand because it's not just about the gutters is it's usually not, right? Yeah. Yeah. I guess just not about the guestroom, it's about a whole lot of other things.
Penney: So, yeah. So I think asking why am I choosing to have this [00:37:00] in my mental load? Or why am I choosing to put it in my hand? Carter put it in my truck. When I have limited amount of space to be able to do that, there must be a reason why this is important for me. And maybe being able to flip the script on that for our partner for understanding and perspective
Janae: too. I think where this conversation can also, maybe this is where we go next is. If something was deeply important to you and you had a expectation around it. But then you, aren't choosing to be the one that's holding that mental load and you're putting it on your partner instead. Um, I think that that does happen. And especially around holiday things, or it's like, you're expecting for a nice holiday meal, but you're not helping participate in any of the preparation for it.
Janae: You're expecting your family to be hosted well, and you're not helping with any of it. It's things like that, that I think it becomes like I didn't choose for this to be within my handcart. Someone has put it in it and [00:38:00] now I'm having to deal with it.
Penney: So how do you kick it out and have a conversation around that of maybe that's the flipping of the script of being able to set the boundaries around that, that this isn't a core value for me, even though I see that it's a core value for you, so I can choose to let that go and not choose to have it in my, in my hand, Carter, in my truck or in my mental load.
Penney: However, you want to look at a load, um, or some people maybe have dump trucks. Some of us really may have a wagon, right? Where, of things that we can handle and things. We can't, we all have different ability to manage that. So, um, without judgment, I think that's another conversation that if all you have is a wagon, but I have a dump truck, it doesn't mean I expect you to have a dump truck to, to be able to handle our loads differently for what we can manage.
Penney: But yeah, I think we can say, no, I'm not choosing to pick this up. Right. I, I
Janae: don't choose to. Yeah. Or maybe it's been something that you've carried for a long time and you're like, I'm done none of this, this isn't my responsibility anymore. Oh, it's not your [00:39:00] sole responsibility, right? I think it comes within a lot of the conversations I've seen online with this is the common way of phrasing.
Janae: It is sharing the mental load. So. Uh, allowing those things to be shared. Yeah. Um, and, and split up between the two of you. I had
Penney: a, I've talked about Rachel before and the amazing mentor that she was for my life. And she talked about it as well. Barrels, do I choose to put this in my web girl? Do I choose to take it out of my wheelbarrow or do we bring our real barrels together and say how I've used your wheelbarrow?
Penney: This is how have you mind is going to add some of mine to yours and really being able to have that conversation. That's the flip of the script, right? Like, well, my wheelbarrow was really heavy trying to push it up. This hill what's in yours. Can we do an evaluation and can we choose to take some things out or can we share the load? And what that looks like is we're pushing these up the hill.
Janae: And sometimes it's loading them all into one and you're both pushing it up together. Yeah.
Penney: That it's a partnership. Yeah.
Janae: Or it feels like you're F you're fighting the same fight. Together.
Janae: Yeah.
Janae: All right. So I think from [00:40:00] here we can move into some tips. So our first one is how to approach the conversation of mental load with your partner. So some more direct tips on how to do that. Well, I think
Penney: I'm starting to have a normalizing conversations around what mental load is. And those nightly, like stress reducing conversations where you're sharing.
Penney: I think just starting to build those daily habits. That's definitely one approach. I think we were talking specifically about the holidays. ,
Penney: Maybe it's saying, Hey, can we have a conversation around what I'm carrying around for the holiday or what is on my mind to, and do a check-in about where they're at and. Have a conversation about, Hey, can we share. I do think if you, it's not a conversation you've had with your partner before, about what mental load is.
Penney: It has to be number
Janae: one. Yeah, maybe share this podcast with them. Step number one
Penney: show.
Janae: [00:41:00] So I had the conversation from a kind of a similar information. Based standpoint. Do you want to maybe break down? Just off the top of your head, what you can remember from. The steps in a stress reducing conversation. Yup.
Penney: Absolutely. So stress, reducing conversation needs to happen in 20 minutes. And this would be a time set aside nightly with you and your partner. If you can't do it, Nightly then you can do a longer one, like at the end of the week, but the recommendation is do 20 minutes a night where you start with 10 minutes of conversation with one partner and then you flip. So the other partner gets 10 minutes. If you only have 10 minutes, you can divide it into five and five, but the recommendation is 10 and 10. And you do just a data dump where your partner goes through.
Penney: Here's everything that happened during my day of waiting horseman. Uh, no criticism. No. , defensiveness or,
Janae: stonewalling.
Penney: Molleen yeah. Um, and contempt. So it's really, and it's really less about like, here's what [00:42:00] I have problem with in our relationship and more just about this is what happened during my day. So it's really a, this is what I'm carrying us, my mental load conversation.
Penney: That's a good way to look at it. And your job as the listener. Is to be a hundred percent on your partner's team it's to say, oh, I can't believe that happened. That sounds really stressful. That's incredibly hard. Uh, What a jerk. That somebody would do that or what terrible drivers there are out there.
Penney: So really your job is to be a hundred percent on your partner's team and not to suggest any changes or fixes or, uh, recommendations. It's really just a listening for 10 minutes. While your partner religious shares about their day. And then at the end of that, you can say, do you want any help or support around that?
Penney: And your partner can say yes or no. And if they do, you can give a suggestion. Uh, if they don't, then you say, okay, if you switch roles and then you have the same opportunity. To do that 10 minutes of dumping. Uh, where you're really just focused on your mental load and what's happening in your world, sharing that inner world and [00:43:00] your partner, just listening and giving that same empathy and validation around how hard that is.
Penney: That's what it is.
Janae: And this could be sharing the struggles within your day, but then also. Uh, I think we've had couples that talk about how they like to end those conversations with like, here's what was one good thing about my day or here's what I'm grateful for about my day. Um, so you could implement that as well. And do you recommend that there's like a timer set so that it's equal for both sides? Yep.
Penney: Um, most of my couples find that to be really helpful that it is on hundred percent of the timer that when the timer goes off, it's time to switch.
Janae: Yeah. That makes sense. I know that there's quite a lot of people that. Or relationships where you can fall into that role of being the one that is. Talking a lot about your, and having a lot of vulnerability and talking about what's going on with you and the other person gets really good about holding space for that. And it can be hard to break out of those roles if you've been stuck
Penney: into them.
Penney: Yeah. I do have one couple, interestingly [00:44:00] enough, that one partner really likes to do kind of that dump in the, at the end of the day, where one almost starts the day with a heavy mental load and needs to do a dump more at the beginning of the day. And so they've broke theirs up. So the one partner that does more of the morning kind of processing dumps in the morning and about here's things I'm worried about for the day or here's the mental load I'm carrying into my day. And the other one does it at the end of the day of here's what came up during the day.
Penney: And so they have found a division, uh, morning and night to be more helpful, which I think is interesting. So knowing you can work at around how your relationship works, but that is one interesting work around for them.
Janae: Yeah, that is interesting. And it's good to see. examples of couples making it, like you said, work for them. And. It doesn't have to follow exactly what. Yeah. What descript says, but allowing yourself some space to make it work for you.
Janae: Yeah. So other things to cert to. Approach the [00:45:00] conversation. listen back maybe to some of our episodes about horseman. Because this can be a really hot topic where horse men will come up. Yeah. If you're coming into this conversation and you start by saying, I'm so stressed, I have such a huge mental load.
Janae: You're not doing anything. That's hopping immediately into criticism and that's not going to get you anywhere. or
Penney: it had run into defensiveness of, well, I'm doing this and I'm worried about this.
Janae: And if on the flip side, if you are coming into that conversation and you're doing as much as you can to step out of criticism, But maybe the receiving partner is, like you said, in a defensive state, again, that's not going to be helpful or productive.
Janae: So, um, Maybe go back and take a listen to those past episodes. I'll try and link them in the show notes so that I'll make it easier for you. And again, this could be one of those things where you send this to your partner and [00:46:00] you both take a listen to them. And so you can show up to this conversation on the same page.
Janae: I would also recommend
Penney: as you're coming into this conversation to be. Kind of set and setting, I think are important too. Don't do it. If there's already conflict, don't do it late at night. Don't do it. If you're already feeling both stressed or overwhelmed. Schedule a time to have the conversation.
Penney: Also, if you can do it when you're on a walk together. Or doing something enjoyable, but really that bilateral would be helpful or get up, turn on some music and dance together while you have the conversation. I know that might seem silly, but some sort of a sway or of movement that can go along with it can be really helpful. Or I would say. 95 of my couples that I work with have these conversations where there's some sort of physical touch and it really helps.
Penney: So do it while you're holding hands or holding, touching feet or some sort of a physical contact that helps to create that safety. In a way that does that. So I think being really mindful of sentence setting when you're sharing mental load is important too. [00:47:00]
Janae: And setting it up intentionally. Even if it doesn't feel like it might be a hard conversation for you to have, it might be how a car prep. The hard conversation for your partner.
Janae: And so, yeah, just being really mindful about the way that you are setting that conversation up. So you can be respectful of both peoples. , energy and, , regulation needs regulating
Penney: needs. I'm prefacing it with this. Isn't a conversation, or I want you to take things on, I really just need to share with you.
Penney: What's in my what's in my wheelbarrow or what's in my load. And. And then, , stepping into, can we have a conversation about dividing that depending on where your partner is at.
Janae: Yeah, and being really intentional about, , This isn't a conversation where we're going to dump everything that we feel like our partner has been doing wrong. Yeah. but yeah, having it be like a.
Janae: A neutral ground point where you can both start to Manny.
Janae: There needs to be a lot of restructuring and that's okay. It doesn't mean that there's any fault [00:48:00] towards one partner versus the other and just allowing it to be a reset. Yeah. I
Penney: try to remind people when we're doing these kinds of sharing moments, it's really about like sharing our perspective. Sharing our perspective doesn't mean, we talk about how the other person fits into our perspective.
Penney: It's really your moment to like shine. It's your, if you think about the great villain dialogues, right? Or model logs, where they do that, it's all about them and their story and their moment. That's what this is. It's your story in your moment where you get to a hundred percent undivided attention to share. , And when you're sharing your story and your perspective, it doesn't have anything to do with your partner.
Penney: It's not their perspective, it's not their story. It's yours. So share your story, share it from your perspective, your viewpoint and how you were feeling. And that really doesn't have anything to do with them. It's yours. Own it own yours. Do your monologue.
Janae: Yeah. And don't fall into the trap of. Assuming or putting assumptions or words into your other partner's mouth about [00:49:00] why they you're doing what they're doing or, you know, one intention they might've had behind it. You know, just. Well
Penney: also, because that doesn't matter when we're doing perspective, what their intentions are, don't, it doesn't matter in our story, regardless of what they did.
Penney: This was still our experience. So whether they did something intentional or unintentional is really. It's it's, uh, it doesn't matter, right? My perspective is that I was hurt or I'm feeling overwhelmed, or I have a lot on my plate or my checklist is really long. Your partner's contribution to that in this moment, doesn't matter.
Penney: All you're doing is saying here's what's in my wheelbarrow, how it got there as less relevant. Other than I just need you to know what's in my wheelbarrow. So I think keeping that in perspective of, I just need you to know what's here. The story about how it got here. Doesn't matter. The important thing is that it's here. So did you put it in my wheel barrel?
Penney: Did I put it in my wheelbarrow? Did I take it on because I felt guilty or felt shame? Did you, did you make it seem like I needed to put in my wheelbarrow? None [00:50:00] of that really matters because it's there. And so now it's there. We need to figure out what to do about it. And so I think just remembering, this is your moment to share what's in your wheel barrel.
Penney: Do your inventory, call it out, have the conversation. But how we got there doesn't really matter.
Janae: I agree. I think that just talking about it in a way that, because we are such relational story-based people, so not like when we do perspective taking exercises with our couples, it is extremely hard.
Penney: Yeah. I'm saying you got to flip the script.
Janae: Just saying, like, if this is hard or difficult for you.
Janae: Yeah. It makes sense. And. The ability to. Talk about it from that neutral or PR or self-based perspective. And not bring your partner.
Penney: It's your monologue. You're just telling your story. How other people create the story? Doesn't matter. It's your
Janae: story? So some logistical ways that that can happen is. Talking about it. [00:51:00] From. A reporter's perspective. We're a narrator. Yep.
Janae: A narrative. Like you're narrating your life and then trying. As hard as you can to not say you or things along that line. I use them into it. Yeah. And
it's
Penney: not their story. So what they did doesn't matter. It's your story. Your perspective, your view.
Janae: And I think that goes along really well with our next, um, tape, which is talking about how to reframe conversations about care tasks and mental load for the partner who wants to step up and take on more.
Janae: So. If this conversation is set up in a neutral way where that partner doesn't feel like they're getting. Demeaned or yelled at or in trouble around this, it creates a lot more, um, open. Have a space for them to step up and say, oh, okay. Okay. I [00:52:00] see this and this here's a, one of those things that I feel comfortable taking on.
Janae: Here's maybe one of these things that I would happy happily take on, but I need some direction around maybe one or two times. And then I can just pick that right up and start doing it. You don't need to worry about it anymore. and so. Setting it up intentionally beforehand so that it does feel comfortable for them to be able to do that.
Janae: We'll be in everyone's favor. we've talked mostly about like sharing between partners. But this can also come into play with your children. Oh, absolutely. So. We all know that if you step in to criticism towards your child immediately, it really lowers their wish and willingness to help. And do things.
Janae: And so, um, yeah, this could be a conversation that you're having with your kids of like, here's where I feel like You and I can start sharing things or, or do you have questions around this, this task? And can we walk through it together a few times and then it will [00:53:00] become your responsibility to take care of. Yeah. so yeah, reframing the conversation beforehand or setting it up really intentionally. Allows for the other person or the partner to be able to feel confident in, step in and say, oh yeah, they need me.
Janae: And I want to be helpful. And I want to be a contributing. Part of this relationship. And that also on the flip side means that there's a little bit of releasing some rains that needs to happen on the other
Penney: side, too. Some control. Also having understanding around the conversation. I think if you're talking about parenting, I remember moments from my own childhood and from my own parenting experience where. sometimes as adults, we can get stuck in how hard our world is, and we forget that they're carrying their own mental load too. And so then instead of assigning tasks that might feel overwhelming for their mental load, this creates a conversation around, um, here's my mental load.
Penney: Here's your mental load? I'm wondering, are there parts of my mental load as I'm feeling [00:54:00] overwhelmed? That you would be okay. Taking on. Is there pieces of this that work for you? Um, I think sometimes as parents, we feel like we have to assign the tasks. And instead of asking, and I think sometimes we can ask, they may be willing to step in and say, yeah, I think I can do this. Um, we may have to do some suggesting of, Hey, here's maybe three options of things that I would like you to take on. And they might say no to all of those.
Penney: And if so, then I think you have to change some, do some different parenting tactic that maybe doesn't fall into this. But I do also think having an understanding around, um, I say this all the time, kids know as parents, we think we're carrying this mental load and we're keeping the secrets. No kids, no. They may not know the exact details, but they know that there's a disturbance in the force and they're feeling that and they try and compensate in other ways. By trying to fix that or make it better in ways that may not be helpful, but they think they're being helpful. So really having a conversation about here's my mental load.
Penney: Do you think, you know, here's some options of things maybe you could take on that wouldn't overwhelm your mental load [00:55:00] also? Uh, I think it's important to respect that of. Uh, depending on the age of the child, they're carrying their own stuff too. And we have to be mindful of that.
Janae: Yeah. And what I love about having an intentional conversation like this is it opens up the door for the. The child to be able to say. I would love to do that, but I have some questions or uncertainty around how logistically I go about that.
Janae: Or here's one thing about that task that that is a. Like for me, a lot of these things when I'm thinking about it with my partner is like, I don't mind doing this aspect of it. But this part of the chore. It's like a sensory nightmare for me. Sure. And so then it becomes like a workshopping thing between you and your child, where you can kind of figure out, okay.
Janae: Here's some things that we can do to help mitigate some of those sensory things that might be bugging you or. I didn't realize that you had confusion around how this works and let's walk through it together. So [00:56:00] it really does create more of a back and forth dialogue, as you're saying, where there can be some troubleshooting and you can figure things out together.
Janae: And I think that that. Is really helpful when we, when the parent or the child. Both sides when you don't just assume. That the other person just doesn't want to do it, or they're not able to help you. And instead it's like, well, there might be other blocks that you just don't know about. Yeah. So. And similarly, I guess if we're talking about this from partner to partner, there may be other box between you and your partner, or you just don't know about it.
Janae: So it's good to help open up that conversation. And
Penney: coworkers that goes across, across all aspects
Janae: of this. Yeah. So kind of moving. In a similar direction again, onto our, it takes two. And we're talking about, in what ways do both partners in their relationship contribute to some unfair distribution of mental load? And we've talked about this a little bit, but I think. [00:57:00] Doing a more in depth part around.
Janae: I think from what I've seen on social media, this gets. Phrased a lot around. There's one partner that is doing it all. There's another partner that is purposely trying not to do anything. Do I think that that's a true depiction of how relationships work, maybe in some, but the vast majority now I don't think so. So right there.
Janae: And so I think having a little bit more of a nuanced conversation around this could look like talking about how maybe. Both partners are contributing to that dynamic because they are. Like we've talked about around maybe having. Either unsaid or unrealistic expectations around what a task is going to look like, how often it needs to be done or in what way it needs to be done. Can get in the way of this or just not feeling. [00:58:00] Like. There's enough trust built between the two partners where there's trust for them to be able to take it on.
Janae: And that could be there could have been a longterm. Over a while trust being deteriorated between the two of you. And so I think the trust
Penney: goes both ways. So for interrupting. But I think it's, uh, I don't trust you to take it on. Where the partner is saying, I don't trust you not to be critical when you do take it on.
Penney: I've heard both sides of that, where the partner will say, well, I've asked you to do this and you don't. Well that's because the other five times I tried, I was criticized and I'm just not willing to step into a place of being criticized. So I think there has to be accountability on both sides of that. Also, I think doing an inventory, if we're talking day to day things versus holiday things, it sounds like we're moving more.
Penney: Day-to-day things. Um, I know Goldman's having a major checklist about, um, here's what my role is and, and they break it down into gender roles, but I don't think it has to be here's my roles within the family. Here's my roles within the [00:59:00] family. Do I like this role? Do I want to keep it or do I want to let it go and have it an honest conversation.
Penney: So maybe this conversation starts with doing an inventory of what is on my mental load from day to day or on the holidays that cause she can do it either one, like. In this holiday season, here's what I feel like is my responsibility and writing it out on your partner, doing the same thing. And then going through that list yourself and saying, I'm okay, keeping this.
Penney: I don't really like this. And then that's when you can have a conversation. Cause maybe the mental load is distributed unfairly. But something has created that, right? So that could be society. That could be your own dreams and your own expectations that have created that for you. It could be mistrust in the past between you and your partner. Um, But that's conversations.
Penney: We need to have something we joke about. And in my family, and we've talked about on the podcast is laundry. When, my partner and I were first together, I came home and he had done the laundry for the whole house thinking he had done an amazing thing and I was upset that he had folded the [01:00:00] socks wrong, and I was very critical about. Not just socks being folded wrong, but tells being folded wrong.
Penney: And I'm rather particular about how my clothes are folded. It's a funny thing of mine and he hasn't done laundry since then. He'll uh, because of the criticism that came from that. And from me not being able to let control, let go of control of that. I'm okay with carrying that mental load. I would rather do it the way I want to do so it's not something that, that does that, but that was something that was created 22 years ago.
Penney: That is still part of our relationship. And so for Sharon talking about sharing a mental load, I have to step into the conversation around why was that created? What does that look like? And I don't think that's just society's expectations that women do the laundry. And I don't think it's his expectation that I do the laundry.
Penney: It was my own expectations about what that looks like and kind of let that go or not. So I think this is a very intricate conversation that needs to happen, but it probably needs to start with an inventory. And then go from there about why is it there? Am I okay with it? Do I want to let it go? I would like you to take it on. Just, I think
Janae: going through that. [01:01:00] Yeah, and this could be a week long month long conversation where just thinking about for the holidays, my partner this year was talking about. Creating one big master list of gift ideas.
Janae: And then he asked me, do you, could you then break this up into who would probably get this for me, for what thing? And then send it out to people, send it out to everyone that needs the list. And I had originally said yes, and it's been. Maybe four or five days since we had that conversation. And I need to go back and reevaluate it with him because at this point I'm like, no, actually I don't think I can do. Um, and so that is just using that as an example of this could be a very long. And it should be, it should be a conversation that you have, and then you check in with yourself and then check back in with each other and, and asking like, is [01:02:00] this working for you? Maybe your needs have changed, maybe your ability to do certain tasks or things, or your timeframe is changed or you're heading into a busier time in work, then your partner, and you can have it be a. An ongoing fluid
Penney: conversation on. Right.
Penney: If you're doing stuff, strategic conversation, it's nightly. And so maybe. As you're getting used to this or starting this, it becomes every night, we're going to have a mental load conversation where, , we start with coming to the thing to the table or. Or whatever that looks like, but that it becomes a daily evaluation of, Hey, you took this on, how was it going?
Penney: How was that impacting your mental load? Are you okay with that? where am I at on my mental mental load? , can I take this, can I add this? I think it does have to be a daily conversation with your partner.
Janae: I agree. I'm also meaning more around like that initial inventory. You might do that inventory and then 10 days later, reevaluate it and fix. That friendly. Yeah,
Penney: absolutely.
Penney: That's why I think a [01:03:00] daily conversation around where is it at, but also if it's happening daily or you can choose, I always say plan it, put it in your calendar. So we're going to reevaluate this in seven days at this time, but you schedule it, you plan it and you come back as a conversation as a couple and habit.
Janae: Yeah. So allowing coming back to kind of original thing of recognizing that. Both. People within the relationship, parent, child, romantic, whatever it may be. Has some contribution to the way this dynamic has been put in place. And that also means that both of you also have to take on accountability around what created that and then, , responsibility around.
Janae: K how are we going to now set new habits? Step into new conversations and make the change happen. Yeah.
Janae: I think another thing that becomes a mental load for certain people in relationships is. Learning about these kinds of topics and then scheduling the things and walking the [01:04:00] other partner through how you're supposed to do it. That just becomes another mental does. So
Penney: then I liked the idea of, Hey, I watched this podcast.
Penney: I want to have a conversation around it. Please do this. , And maybe that's just one part of the mental load instead of having to do all the education of it.
Janae: Yeah, a little aside here, but , I really wanted to have a bigger conversation with my partner. And there was a book that I wanted to kind of preface the conversation around and. I was really hesitant to ask him of like, Hey, I'm reading this.
Janae: I think it applies to our relationship.
Janae: Would you consider reading it too? And I sent him a link and I just said, I would really appreciate it. If maybe you took the time to read this, I'm reading it. And I think it could start some good conversations with us. And. It was so interesting because. I shouldn't be surprised, but it was so nerve wracking for me to ask that.
Janae: But then that night he had downloaded the book, bought it, listened to several [01:05:00] chapters of it came with things that he was interested in and discussion points that he wanted to talk to me about his own unique perspective on the. The topics and I was just blown away and it made me feel incredibly cared for, and it was so nice to be able to step out of that mental load place of being the one that has to be educated on the topic before stepping into the conversation around it and realizing that That dynamic might've come about more because I'm doing all of this in the background and he has no idea that I'm doing all this research or reading all of these things.
Janae: And then I just pop the conversation up on him. It's not like he doesn't necessarily want it to be doing those research and things himself. He's just not on the same page as me yet.
Penney: Sure. Or you don't know what page she's on. I also think the other part of that, it goes back to what we talked about earlier in the podcast that we think we're trying to protect them. Um, instead of allowing them to be part of our inner world, we create barriers to our inner world in order to protect them.
Penney: It's like [01:06:00] my mental load is so heavy, right. That I don't want to put that on someone else because I don't want them to also feel heavy. So we're protecting them from it. When all that does is create distance and damage.
Janae: And I was like, oh, this is a thing that I like reading about, or I really like non-fiction things and nerding out about this kind of stuff.
Janae: And that's a lie, a lot of pressure to put on someone else to read a whole big. Textbook kind of a thing about it. And, and then realizing that, like you said, th those were perceptions that I had of him that aren't correct. I didn't give him the opportunity to step in and. Decide how he feels about it. And so, yeah, just an example of how these dynamics are created by both sides.
Janae: And so. It's so interesting to realize like, In my head, it was all. Well, I don't think he's going to be okay with this. I never gave him the, the chance to, to have his own part of it. Yeah. And so realizing where you might be putting up barriers [01:07:00] for your partner to step in and help with things or have a more nuanced conversation around things it's like, oh yeah.
Janae: I, I did that to myself and, uh, Yeah, I
Penney: didn't allow them to carry. I didn't allow them to take things out of my WELBRO because I didn't want them to see what was in my low viral.
Janae: Yeah. It's comes back. I think again, to that trust. Well, there it's. Trust within the relationship or trust of like, Um, Then having to see more of your inner world, just like you were saying.
Janae: Yeah. Yeah. And I also
Penney: think it's that, uh, it isn't like we're taught how to do that when we were talking about. Uh, like perpetual issues or how this is a dream within conflict issue. If I'm going to share with some, I will barrel. And my partner is going to say, well, you know, why does the bedroom need to be this way?
Penney: Or what does the customer need to be this way? And I don't know how to have that conversation or explore that within myself, we get stuck, which can lead to conflict and barriers and distance. And so I also think, uh, there are some of that needing to develop skills and tools and tips and. [01:08:00] And that's hard.
Penney: I just want to validate that these aren't. Things that we come into the world with or things that we're really taught. And so, um, they can be hard conversations that there's reasons why they're created that way, but there's also ways around it and there's ways to move past it.
Janae: In the work that I do in some of the yoga groups, talking a lot about self criticism. And delaying you were talking about, okay, what if you're in that conversation with your partner?
Janae: And they say, well, explain to me why this is so important to you. And the only thing that's flagging in your brain is a self criticizing statement of, I don't know, I'm just a control freak. Yeah. How that blocks the conversation from continuing to go. You might internalize that and act offensively towards your partner. When they might've just been curious. And maybe you're then creating some self-criticism that then you're labeling as criticism from them when they [01:09:00] weren't being critical. And so it can create like a vicious cycle. And yeah, if you haven't. Had the chance or the knowledge or the time, you know, whatever it is to be able to have that internal discovery and an ability to look in order to notice.
Janae: Oh, why, why is it so important to me? And having the practice of it, not being a self critical thing. Just because you want something or you need something. It doesn't mean that there's something wrong with you? I feel like so often that's where the line or train of thought ends. And. Being able to stop that from being the narrative is so important and so hard.
Janae: So yeah, it's about
Penney: getting curious. Why is that in the narrative? What makes that the narrative let's explore within myself and within the relationship? What brings that up?
Janae: Yeah. Where did this come from then? And why is that? The default response to me having needs is me being a control freak. [01:10:00] That's an interesting thought prouder.
Janae: And where did that come from on why is it there? And, you know, following down that rabbit hole, Okay. Um,
Janae: From here, we're ready to spin the wheel. Okay. Um, Reach around and grab it.
Janae: It's always a little elusive to us.
Penney: I got a seven. So an odd. Um, what mental load. Uh, what mental load about personal parents to behold? Um, so. Switching to more body image or physical presence, I would say. Uh, I think there's a lot in this, about how we appear in the world. Did I. Exercise. How does my body look? How do my clothes up here? Uh, in fact, at the beginning of this podcast, Janae is video recording this one for the first time.
Penney: And my [01:11:00] first comment was you got to warn me about these things. So I know. That what I'm wearing looks really good, right? Or looks professional. And then I have really had to bring into myself, you know, but this is how I show up every day and how my clients see me. Uh, and that there's acceptance around that instead of needing to look professional, I just get to be me. And so I do think we hold on to a mental load about what is professional, what is appropriate?
Penney: What are we going to get judged for? What is okay, what is not. Um, and that's a huge mental load that we carry all the time. Especially when we walk by a mirror, we know when we walked by a mirror or an image of ourself, our self-esteem drops. And so I think that mental load is heavy and there all the time about appearance and how people see us and judge us and we
Janae: show up. And I think that it becomes even more heavy of a load to carry. Similar to what we've said before, when. All of those expectations are intrinsically attached to our self-worth, which [01:12:00] because of the way our society is.
Janae: And a lot of the cultural dynamics that we hold. It is, it's so much attached to your worth and, um, yeah, and I think more
Penney: than just self worth. I think it's also, if I, I don't know, I show up in. Holy clothes. Wearing a t-shirt my hair in a ponytail and looking tired with bags under my eyes. Nobody's going to look at me and think, oh, you have it all together.
Penney: You're a professional, right? That, that I do think it portrays things in our society, not just about our own personal worth, but about. Our financial position and about our education level. And, um, that appearance is more than just personal worth. It shows words around everything around what car you drive, what clothes you have. Um, I, I talk about this when we travel and how I think, well, people will think that, you know, When people see us, I assume that the assumption is that we don't look wealthy, but when you really start to look at all the little pieces, right.
Penney: About what kind of jewelry you're wearing, what kind of glasses are you [01:13:00] when? Because sunglasses are you wearing? What labels are you wearing? What watch are you wearing? All of that equals different status. And appearance in our society. And mentally we put those on for a reason. We're carrying those for a reason. Um, so I think it's, it's a lot of judgment around that.
Penney: Not just self-worth but financial worth and educational worth, then. Everything status.
Janae: For sure. Um, and a lot of that is always tied back to do we feel worthy of love in our enoughness in the world. And that is. I hadn't really hard to hold on to. Yeah. All right. I will take my spin.
Janae: I got same one. So we got an odd as well.
Janae: So for me, the mental load about personal appearance. Oh,
Janae: I think it's a very similar conversation or statement that you had around like yeah, just feeling a lot of pressure to show up in a certain way. [01:14:00] And that can change depending on who I'm seeing and where I'm mad and.
Janae: Who's around and what the occasion is like. There's a lot of. Mental checkboxes that go into here's what I'm doing today. Here's who I'm going to be seeing. Here's the activities that I'm going to be doing, or the roles that I'm taking on. And. Dressing and being. Uh, appropriate in your appearance for all of those occasions.
Janae: That's a lot.
Penney: This is a lot, that's a lot of mental carrying of something so small around just like what I'm going to wear or how I'm going to do my hair or all of that. Right. That's a lot of mental
Janae: load. I think something for me that. Comes to mind around this as like maybe a little bit of a change in the question can be, how can you unload some of the mental load around personal appearance?
Janae: And for me that has become , Choosing to.
[01:15:00]
Janae: Um, So interesting. I, the thing that comes to mind here is a conversation that I was having with a mentor when we were talking about. Me wanting to go and talk to other counseling agencies and pitch like doing yoga for their clients or for them. And I, one of the things I said was like, I'm nervous about going and having these conversations and. And I just rattle off a bunch of things.
Janae: And I think the last thing I said is like, I don't even know what to wear. And she was like, you'll wear yoga clothes. Cause you're a yoga teacher and it's okay for you to show up like that. And it's allowed for you to be a yoga teacher and that to be part of your identity. And I was like, it's such a funny thing for someone to say, but it was such a light bulb moment.
Janae: And one of the phrases that I repeat to myself a lot, like. It's okay. That I address away and, and that I have. Things set up in my life the way I am, because I am a yoga teacher. I am a student or, you know, whatever it is that I'm feeling pressure around. [01:16:00] To be something that I'm not, it's okay.
Janae: It's okay. To just show up. And your own skin. And as you are some other things that I've done, kind of break a little bit of the societal stuff around that and lessening the mental load is like, Showering at different rates than what other people may be. Think I should be. It sounds like I don't shower, but like, you know, Allowing myself to ask. Do I have the time for shaving today or not, and maybe I don't shave at all, or I don't wear makeup anymore because it's not something that's fulfilling to me.
Janae: And I don't like taking the extra time out of my day to do it. And when I'm running late, Or I'd rather sleep a little bit longer or eat breakfast at home instead of doing it on the run. It's more important to me than putting on makeup or having really simple hairstyles instead of going to the nines on my hair.
Janae: Things like that, that I realized were a lot of mental load that just don't matter to me. And the matter to other people that I can let go of.
Penney: Yeah. So that's checking in with [01:17:00] core values again, right? That's what I was thinking around the dress that, um, sometimes I find myself doing that too, looking at my schedule and thinking, you know, do I need to show up differently for this person versus that person, but also remembering to me. Authenticity is a core value for me and showing up authentic as myself I know is what makes me a good professional.
Penney: And so if that, so that's. The value, right? The core value is authenticity. And so that's how I need to show up and not in a way that maybe other people would judge as professional because that may not be authentic to me. So it needs to be about authenticity. Yeah. Checking core values around. What's in my world barrel.
Penney: Is this a core value for me? Because if it's not a core value for me, but I'm carrying it around for somebody else and it's getting shipped out again. That'd be
Janae: core value for me. I also think when we feel. Safe and comfortable enough to show up. In our own skin and reflecting the [01:18:00] values that we hold dear. It creates space for other people to do that. Like.
Janae: How you were saying. You know, if you're showing up with your hair. Crazy. And you're in soft sheet clothes. well, people judge you for that. I think that also how beautiful it is when I show up. Five minutes late to a yoga practice. And my students are patiently waiting for me, or they've already started setting things up and it's like, I could fall into a shame spiral around being a bad teacher because I'm showing up late.
Janae: But guess what? On the flip side, when they're coming in late to practice, I'm never judgmental towards them about that because that's a core value of mine to be able to just show up as you need to and lessen the stress around doing a practice that is already really hard for people to show up for. And sometimes it's really hard for me to show up for too.
Janae: Like I think we talked about that a lot of like, doing these kinds of care tasks. Are hard for other people, but just because you're the one leading it or doing it, it doesn't mean it's any easier for you to be [01:19:00] doing them either.
Penney: And if I had a client that was struggling with showing up on time or feeling like they needed to apologize for their parents, when they come in, the conversation that I have is what is it about our relationship? That you, , feel like you can be authentic or show up for that you feel like there's judgment around because that's a reflection on our relationships and we need to talk about. , versus this is a reflection on how you're not put together or, or not enough.
Penney: And so I really think maybe mental load can be, let go on some of those, if you start to evaluate, is this important to me? And if people in relationships and authenticity are a value for me, then how do I flip the script? So that's in my wheelbarrow instead of the other.
Janae: Yeah. And recognizing that.
Janae: The safety within the relationship has to be there before you can show up authentically.
Janae: And that's really hard to set up. Yep. And it goes both ways. Yes. Both ways. [01:20:00] Yeah. All right. You ready for a rapid fire? Sure. Okay. How are you combating seasonal affect disorder as we have gone further into time change and the darker season.
Penney: Oh, well, I mean, we just came back from Mexico, so I feel like that was a huge boost. , in the protection against seasonal affect disorder that hasn't really worn off yet. I still have, , a tan and, , I feel like we're still riding the high from that a little bit. , heading maybe more into the Christmas season for me. , really stepping into a creative place. Is important for me to combat seasonal affect disorder. , and anytime that I can step outside and just be outside. , is important to what I may not be out there for a very long time.
Penney: It really just, maybe I'm walking to the car, but I stop and take five to 10 deep breaths of the air and experience some sunshine. Are those moments? , those are definitely ways that I do it.
Janae: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of research shows that it's less about [01:21:00] your time spent doing the thing and more about your mindfulness while you're doing this.
Janae: Yeah. Really being able to take it in.
Janae: Yeah, I would say for me, the things that I've done around this would be. , Really leaning into light therapy that I, , invested in towards the beginning of the season and really utilizing those tools. And then I'm changing my schedule and putting supports in for the changes within my schedule. So for me, a lot of that is other people, Personal accountability with other people.
Janae: So. Doing things within my schedule that I know other people are also joining me in, in doing with me so that there's other people to hold me accountable. Because that's an important thing for me and allowing that to be okay at that, , that I need those supports is not a big deal. No. , so yeah. Cool.
Janae: Well, [01:22:00] Good luck to you with your conversations around mental load. , whether they're, you're starting with just some self evaluation or whether you are hopping into these deeper conversations. We invite you to send this to. A partner or someone was in your life. Maybe you want to have this conversation with around and align this to be the starting off point. ,
Penney: yeah, I also want to add, we have talked about a lot of, uh, big words.
Penney: I think we throw around ideas and topics that sometimes we. Recognize that maybe are like, when we're talking about dreams within conflict or stress reduction conversations, are we. We start throwing around words or topics or skills that maybe. Our new for you. , don't be afraid to reach out, send us a message and say, Hey, I'm not sure about this.
Penney: Can you do an episode around it or can you send me your reference or help me get more understanding? We're always happy to do that. , just to be able to be there and provide support around that instead of going to a [01:23:00] place of shame, because you don't know and shouldn't know because it wasn't things we knew till we knew, and it's not things you're going to know until, you know, So, , just recognizing that it's okay to let go of that mental load of having to find it yourself and share it with us by reaching out and asking for support.
Janae: Yeah. Reach out links for our social media will be in the show notes and then. If you're listening to this on Spotify, it automatically has like a little QA section that you can pop your question in there. and we're happy to answer and clarify anything that does maybe coming up for you because yeah, it's penny and said, this is. Uh, big topic and then it had a lot of other big topics and words around it that, that we were. Thrown around.
Janae: So. Yeah. Get the support that you need. okay. Well, We will be back next week. We're going to be talking about recovery from, Fights. Or regrettable incident. Yup. So conflict and how to recover and come back [01:24:00] together after that. So feel free to join us next week when we talk about that. And until then, we'll see you next time. Yeah, absolutely. Bye. Bye.
