Ep. 2 Unpacking Mother-Daughter Relationships From the Early Years into Adulthood.
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Episode 2 Summary: In this episode Janae and Penney discuss the intricacies of mother-daughter relationships, drawing from their own experiences as both mothers and daughters. They cover topics such as body acceptance, emotional burden sharing, and setting parental expectations. The podcast concludes with a rapid-fire Q&A where they share their favorite seasons and recent vacations. They also encourage their listeners to take time for critical conversations with their mothers/daughters and to embrace the challenges and changes that come with these relationships.
Episode Two
Janae: [00:00:00] Welcome to Untangling Relationships, a conversation between a counselor and a yoga teacher, a Gen Xer and a millennial, and a mother and daughter. Join us as we explore the ins and outs of relationships with your host, Janae and Penny. Hello. Hello.
Penney: How are you? I'm good. How are you? Good.
Janae: How's your morning going?
Penney: Eh, . It's a Tuesday. That feels like a Monday.
Janae: Oh, yeah. , I get. . All right. So today the relationship we are going to be talking about and untangling a little bit is mother and daughter relationships. So do you have any initial thoughts about mother and daughter relationships, or do you wanna hop right into the questions?
Penney: Yeah. Can we just hop right into the questions?
Janae: All right. How has your relationship with your mom changed over time?
Penney: Uh, significantly. Uh, [00:01:00] didn't grow up having a close relationship with my mom, and it's definitely better as an adult than it was as a a child and an adolescent.
Janae: Were there any big moments that led to that growth or do you think it was a slowly over time transition?
Penney: I think it's been both. I think there's been big moments and slow transition over time.
Janae: All right. Let's see. How has my relationship with my mom changed over time? I think that it's just been a slow evolution from the normal stages of like childhood and then hood, , that's what you call it, adolescence, I guess. Uh, and then into adulthood. And. Some the changes of, I think some of the biggest spots for change were around the transition into becoming an adult.
Which is interesting cuz I don't think very many people talk about that. Like, you're, [00:02:00] you always hear that like, teenagers are really hard. And you know, you get a. Advice on both sides as a teenager or as a parent of like, here's what you do to handle it. Or, you know, be wary of these ages. But I don't know if people talk about as much of that weird transition of parenthood when your kid is 18 or has either moved out or is now gaining some sense of, Independence. And it's, it's funny, I feel like in our cultural lot it's talked about as like, well, they're 18 now, so they, you know, it's like, well, you just have to handle them until they're 18 and then they're outta your hair and you don't have to worry about it anymore. . It's definitely not reality.
Penney: No, it's definitely not reality. I was just saying, my office, there's actually those conversations that happen often around. How to transition from a parent-child relationship to an adult adult relationship because they're different. And different supports around the parent who's going through that [00:03:00] and different supports around the, the adolescent becoming an adult, and those expectations and fears and on both sides, it's a lot.
It's actually a really big transition.
Janae: Yeah, I'd say it's one of the biggest ones that I've gone through as far as like changes Throughout my lifetime. Are there any, I'm curious, are there any like common threads between the conversations you have from like kid to kid, parent to parent of like, what are the common things that most people are struggling through?
Penney: I think for the parent realizing that it's a choice now, right? Like they're listening to you or even choosing to have you in their life or not, it's not required. The state isn't gonna say, Ooh, you're, you have to take care of them. They have to be with you. So if you want to have a relationship with 'em, you have to put the effort in to make a relationship with them if you haven't already.
Hopefully that work has already happened, [00:04:00] but being able to. Demand or command or any of those are gone. And that being able to just step back and let them make their choices is a very difficult process. So part of that, I think, is realizing it's their choice. And what does that look like? Is definitely a redesigning of the relationship and a redesigning of boundaries around what you share and what you don't share.
And for the adolescent going into adulthood, There's a lot of pressure in our society to, uh, go to school. What are you gonna do with your life? What does this look like? And I generally really encourage them to take time to think about that. They don't need to make any decisions. I mean, really it.
18, you have a lot, a lot of life left and there isn't any big major decisions that have to be made at that time. Also, it was a school counselor for a while, and the big push was if kids don't go to [00:05:00] college right after high school. In fact, I'm sure I gave this advice to you, Janne, , I'm true as a mom, , that they're less likely to go to school.
And I did some research on that a few years ago, and that's actually not true that. In other countries and in other cultures where that gap year of a year to two years is encouraged that they actually have, uh, better outcomes with going to school, being successful in careers, choosing careers that they want to do, and, and really just having, a more successful life.
So I actually go more on the side of, take time to figure that out. If it's a year, if it's two. Do what you have to do to take care of you and learn how to be an adult before you jump right into education and planning a future. Mm-hmm. ,
Janae: you know, and in so many ways that makes. An incredible amount of sense,
Penney: Sure. Our brains aren't fully formed. We're probably not gonna know what we want to do with the rest of our lives. Yeah. Until our brains are fully formed, which really isn't gonna happen for another eight years, so maybe we give it some time to do that. . I think it's funny that [00:06:00] we have those expectations when we really just don't even know ourselves and prefrontal cortex isn't fully online yet, so probably need some help from that.
Janae: Yeah. It's interesting how much it feels like. , the really big decisions are all front loaded towards a very young part of your life. Like, you know, yeah. What is your career that you want to go into? Where are you gonna go to school and where are you gonna live? . And I think, and then some other like smaller cultural pockets within the us especially within Idaho.
It's like, who are you gonna marry and are you gonna have kids like ? It's a lot. And I wonder if some of that is still from back when. , our life expectancy wasn't as long. Maybe that's like a lingering symptom of that. I don't know. Because it's like we have, you know, the possibility to live [00:07:00] for a very, very long time.
It's not like we need everything figured out in our twenties. So yeah. ,
Penney: I think it could be from that, and I can't back this with research, but I also think it comes from a place of fear for the adult about, well, if they have a plan then I can breathe a little. Mm-hmm. , if they don't have a plan, things feel really, uh, willy-nilly and who knows what will happen.
So I think some of that is, uh, fear-based from an adult's perspective, that if you. . If you can look at everyone and say, yep, they're in college, they have a career path, we're good. Mm-hmm. Or they are married and are settled, I think that helps us feel better. But that's really not the goal. It's to allow them to explore life, to figure out what's going to make them happy so they're not, uh, redesigning their life.
I also often say life is forgiving too. Let's say you decide to move somewhere and you decide you hate it, you'll move back. Or if you start a career path and you don't like, change careers. Life is so forgiving, and just because we choose a path [00:08:00] at 18, 19, 20 does not mean that has to be our career path for life.
And we put a lot of anxiety into worrying about making the right choice when it doesn't have to be the right one. And it might be the right one for that time, and it may not be the right one for life. So it's okay. It's okay to make choices with that and to have space for change around that without it being viewed as a failure.
So I, I do think it's some pressure from adult. I also spend a lot of time with adolescents how to. politely or not politely, , depending on the, on the parents, the well relationships. Well, not just parent and relationship, but uh, I talk with 18 year olds as they're getting ready to graduate and they get so tired of the question, and I know you've expressed this too, of like, what are you gonna do with your life?
Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. . And we get so tired of that question that every person that you run into especially come in out of the holiday season. Family gatherings or anytime you see someone, and I think it's become our way of, uh, having [00:09:00] conversations, right? Yeah. But of really pushing back towards that, of.
I don't know. What are you doing with your life or, uh, did you know what 18, what your plan was? Or how does your life line up with what it did when you were 18? Uh, because that just increases that anxiety and pressure on an 18 year old to tell 20 people in a week, you know what your plan is for the future.
Uh, when you just don't know. And I don't think you're gonna know. So definitely a lot of normalizing of that and how to push back in that conversation.
Janae: Yeah, I definitely experienced a lot of that. And it's hard when you maybe are in that position of taking either a break from school or a break before getting into school that then you're like, what am I supposed to say to these people?
But it is interesting because. within Western Westernized Society, like the focus on so much of our language and the way we communicate is around what are you doing? [00:10:00] Like, because if you were the 18 year old in that situation, you would be asking maybe the adults at that party or the older adults at that party, like how's work going?
So. . It's interesting on both sides that we just don't have good experience with asking like icebreaker questions that aren't revolved around What are you doing with school? What are you doing with work? I had to write a whole paper on it. Like Western versus eastern ways of communicating and yeah, just in the very language of, , we say, what's up?
Or what are you up to? Or what are you doing? Or how's it going? Here and there. It's, it's more personal questions which I think is interesting how that translates into, yeah, feeling like there's a lot of pressure that you need to be doing things and you need to have it figured out when that's not necessarily.
helpful to anyone? I've gotten pretty good at [00:11:00] when people ask me, cause I'm still in school of like, when are you graduating? Or how's school going? Of like saying, oh, you know, if everything goes to plan, you know, sometime in the summer, like, or in a few years, like back in the day when it was longer away.
But I didn't wanna give a specific. Month or date or time, because I don't wanna be held to that just in case, you know, things in life happen, you know?
Penney: Yeah. I think the perfect answer to that would be, I'm gonna be a lifelong learner, . So, I mean, I haven't stopped becoming, I, I guess, education, right?
Learning and growing and educating myself. I, I think that's a lifelong journey for most of us, and helps to keep our brains young. , I recommend it. So that would probably be my answer to people. If I dunno if I'll ever be done, I will be a lifelong learner. Yeah.
Janae: It is interesting talking with other people about that boundary setting and [00:12:00] boundary holding with parents once you are an adult.
Whether. In your forties with parent dynamics that you're figuring out or in your twenties with parent dynamics that you're figuring out, like it's hard to, maybe make those adjustments if you've never had practice. Like you said, it was always, when you're under 18, it's always the expectation or, or there's legal bound that tie you to.
you know, that relationship and when you are an adult, you have to then try and figure out what does this relationship look like on my terms now? Mm-hmm. and yeah, that can be a very complicated transition. Yeah. All right. so how has your relationship with your mom influenced you?
, and I guess maybe we could even do this part in two parts for you. I don't have a kid, but, so for you, you could even say how has the relationship with your mom influenced you and maybe how has your relationship with your daughters influenced you? And that could be maybe interesting. [00:13:00] I would say that the relationship between me and you is probably one of the. most influential relationships I have. Probably until I got into my relationship with my partner, Brooklyn, it definitely was the biggest relationship, which I think is pretty normal for most people. Mm-hmm. . But yeah, the older I get, the more I see a lot of similarities between the two of.
and a lot of similarities between the way we communicate or the way we make decisions or yeah. I think that growing up in a semi single parent kind of on and off single parent household, having that definitely, it's like, well, that's your main attachment and there's nothing wrong with that.
It's just. . When I look back, I'm like, yes, that was the most influential relationship and I can see where, how that's maybe why that transition into adulthood was [00:14:00] so, and sometimes difficult, but also just like so strange because it was like, oh, this is weird. Like I don't know where my touching points are anymore.
You know? You had to kind of figure out where those are on your own now, or like. , yeah. What are my moral boundaries? What are my like, thoughts around these bigger questions if you don't have someone to touch back with not that you disappeared, but it's like you need to try and start figuring those things out on your own.
You can't always be relying or deferring back to someone else for all of your choices or your opinions. And then, became even doubly. So when you get into a relationship and it's like you're trying to figure these things out and it's like, oh, I don't know. I know how I would handle this relationship or this decision in these other relationships.
But now you're dealing with a whole nother person and you're trying to figure out, okay, is this plan of action something that I align with? Or was [00:15:00] this just my default cuz that's how I grew up, or that's how I. . I'm comfortable doing things and so that's been interesting. But I would say just to the question of how has this relationship influenced you, I think it would be hard to find a point within my personality or a point within my life where it hasn't been influenced by that.
Just because we were so close slash are so close. But then also, you know, we know from a psychological standpoint, like your attachment with your main care. , whether it's a mom, a dad, or someone else, is a huge influence on your life.
Penney: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. That primary attachment is key in the way that it's healthy and how that impacts the rest of your life.
Yeah, I was actually thinking as you were saying that, the importance of a parent perspective around that. And definitely growing pains with this myself. Having adult children, right. Four of them now, that [00:16:00] you have to, as they're finding those touching points and developing their own views around things, the ability to be flexible and accepting around those views is really key and primary, that the understanding is they're going to change their view and that's okay.
Mm-hmm. , they're already feeling. Fear around making those changes and and fear of losing your acceptance that you need to do your best, the best you can to take that away and just allow them to find out who they are and come into the fullness of being adults. It's really
Janae: important. Yeah, I could really see where the impulse would be as a parent to be like.
No, but that's wrong . But that's not how we do it. Right? That's not how we do it, or that's not what I taught you, or that's not like how things have always been. And I definitely have seen where, you know, trying to integrate someone else into your family, you know, friends who are [00:17:00] integrating or even us integrating in-laws into our family, it's, it's difficult sometimes because it is.
you're bringing in a stranger and you're like, you have such a tight knit way of doing things, whether you see that or not. Mm-hmm. , each family is its own little ecosystem. Yeah, absolutely. So you're their own. You're bringing a stranger into your ecosystem. A strange creature that's will change things.
Mm-hmm. . And usually it's for the better. I definitely think that the, uh, in-laws that I have have definitely brought their own fun, unique perspectives and ways of doing things and has definitely made our family More enriched, but there's, I could see as a parent, like that would be weird because you've been in such a tighter knit dynamic of like it's your core immediate family for so long, like 18 years or maybe less if they leave early, but, and then all of a sudden it's going through these massive changes and Yeah.
Yeah. That would be really weird. I could imagine that [00:18:00] would be hard. .
Penney: Sure. And I definitely think. Maybe some family background that I ran a tight ship trying to work and raise children and, uh, support the family there. Things had to be a certain way and in a very orderly, uh, this is how we do it, fashion, because that's what made the, the engine run and run effectively to be able to move forward.
So yeah, it has been a lot of growth on my part. . Inviting and opening and, uh, really accepting. I loved it. I love all of my sons and daughters in-laws. A hundred percent. My kids only have one daughter-in-law, but, uh, absolutely there's a lot of love around that and for the people that they are and for what they bring to the family and appreciation around that.
we have to be flexible and open to change and acceptance instead of like, this is the way we do it. You have to mold [00:19:00] yourself and assimilate to being a part of our family, looking at much more as a, a melding and a changing and a growing process. Mm-hmm. .
Janae: Yeah. I really like that. . It has created more flexibility in the way that we do things and in the way that we interact with each other.
And, but it is funny when I reflect back or when I'm talking to people about like childhood dynamics within the family, it very much was like, I wouldn't describe it as a ship. I, we always also talked about it as like a team, a baseball team. Yeah. Softball team. Cause we played softball. Someone is always there to.
be there to pass the ball to if you need help. Mm-hmm. , like you're never holding everything by yourself. But also when certain parts of the team break down, the whole game breaks down. Absolutely. And so, yeah, I really like that, that metaphor.
Penney: So we've just added a lot more, we have some outfield men now.
Yeah. We have a lot infill players. So we have, we've had some new players to our team and they definitely have [00:20:00] brought their own strengths to make the team better. Mm-hmm. .
Janae: Yeah. Definit. . All right. So how has the relationships with your mom and also maybe with your daughters influenced you?
Penney: So I didn't have as close of a relationship with my own mother growing up, and I definitely left home.
To become a mom. Very determined to do it differently. I was also really young when I left home to become a mom. I was, uh, 16 when I left home. 17 when I had my first baby and I was very determined to do it differently. And I read a lot. I had some really amazing. , uh, mentors in what that process looked like.
Also jumping into school and choosing to do psychology and learning about child development. those were important pieces of learning to be a mom My mom was a very black and white thinker. Like things were right or things were wrong, and I am not great at thinking inside the box. So there was a natural [00:21:00] mismatch there around my ability to argue that there was a lot of gray.
And I remember, oh, was years after I left home, I was in probably my mid twenties. when my mom made the comment that she did realize that there was some gray in life and that everything wasn't black and white. And she had gone through her own growing learning experiences. And I think that was a moment of healing for me to see that my mom grew and had changed.
And I think that definitely influenced our relationship. As I can see, as I grow and change as a mom, it influences our relationship. I think we forget that our parents are learning and growing into different phases of life as we are also. And so that's gonna impact the relat. I have a good relationship with my mom, although I think about heard on the radio that like it's a high percentage, maybe like 80% of people that talk to their mom daily.
And that's not something that I do. I talk to my mom maybe once a month. Sometimes it's only once every couple of months, but I wouldn't have describe it as a distant relationship. I enjoy talking with her. . Not [00:22:00] something that I have been in the habit of doing as I'm building the relationship with my mom, but, so I would definitely say growth and change in our relationship as my mom has grown and changed and I have also and what it was like to become a mom of a daughter.
I wanted all boys. So actually when I found out I was having my first daughter, I was really sad and it was a struggle for me. But definitely the best gift is to be a mom.
Janae: Yeah, I think that it's okay to allow those relationships to ebb and flow, like reflecting back on what you said of, you know, 80% of people who are in constant contact. I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, obviously. Talk to you every day. But we are in a more working relationship when we haven't been in the working relationship.
It's not an everyday thing. And I think when it, when it needs to be an everyday thing, then that, that's fine. But I think that also it's important to look at it maybe from the perspective that each relationship between families, but also within the [00:23:00] family. Like your relationship with my sisters. and also my brother like is very different between how much contact we need between each other to feel like we're secure in the relationship versus them.
It is, it's different and. So I do think it's interesting when you hear those blanket statements of like, here's how most mother-daughter relationships work. It's like, okay, well again, that's a black and white way of looking at it. Like where is the gray? And also if someone's listening to that on the radio, is that going to immediately make them feel like shame about their own relationship with their moms?
Cuz that is a very stereotypical. , like you see it in media and books and movies, like your relationship between a mother and daughter is supposed to quote unquote be super strong and extremely nurturing and one of the closest relationships you have in your life. And that definitely is the case for some people.
But I know a lot of people where [00:24:00] that's not the case and how painful that can be. Society thinks that that's supposed to be the norm and that maybe you're broken or that relationship is broken when it doesn't look like that. Yeah, I think
Penney: that's very true with the, as Janae said, the other, her siblings, the four kids I have, there's a different dynamic in each one of those relationships, just as it was when they were born and growing up.
You. Uh, different relationships with each child. And I think just allowing for that in adulthood is important. So it's gonna look different. And you're right, I think every mother-daughter relationship is gonna look different, and that's okay. It's okay to have differences. It's also a realization that it's something that requires lifelong work.
It's not something that just is, is what it is. It it, it changes and grows and ebbs and flows.
Janae: What is your opinion on the age old adage that once you become pregnant or once you hold your baby, you just know [00:25:00] what to do? ?
Penney: No, that's so not true. ,
Janae: I figured as much, but also I think it's an interesting thing to maybe dissect
Penney: Oh, I think that that could be an episode all on its own and. That that connection is different for each baby, and I have it a different experience. I was a really young mom and, uh, very didn't feel really supported by my family. I also. It wasn't the quintessential girl that grew up taking care of the babies.
I actually didn't like babies and I was better with a baby calf or a, a full, or, you know, anything in the, the barnyard than I was with humans. Really great once I got to be two or three, but babies were not my thing. So yeah, I don't think that's true. I think it comes with a lot of fear about, well now what?
Mm-hmm. And I, you. , I do think you figure it [00:26:00] out. And definitely seeking out mentors and examples and people that could support me in that process was amazing. And, and I appreciate all of the women that added to that to help me become a mom.
Janae: Hmm. , yeah. More of a, a slow learning curve than .
Penney: No, absolutely
I mean, it can't be too slow. You still have a baby to take care of , but
Janae: Yeah, you have to be fast enough that they survive. . Yeah. Yeah.
Penney: Heather, there is that. But yeah, I, I do think you don't have all the answers and. , even if you develop the answers for one baby, when you have another one, you've gotta develop new answers.
Cuz they are all so different. They all have their own quirks or things that they need. I mean, we joke in our family about how each person found comfort as an infant and that was different for everyone. And you have to figure that out. So it's kind of a fun, uh, detective journey that you get to do.
Mm-hmm. .
Janae: Yeah. Yeah. You kind. , I say presented, but obviously that's not how it works. But you're like [00:27:00] presented with. , strange human to take care of. And I do think that there's an expectation of like, well, it's half of me so I should know what to do with it. But that's .
Penney: I actually don't remember ever thinking that.
I think I also went into having a baby, knowing that it was going to be difficult and that I didn't have all the tools and all the knowledge that I needed. Hence the, the research and the curiosity and the asking questions and the reaching out and the building of a community. Uh, important for me to gain the skills that I needed to be a mom.
Janae: Mm-hmm. , do you think that's a more helpful perspective than going into it? Maybe thinking that, you know, you've checked all of the predetermined boxes you need and therefore everything will be okay? ?
Penney: Yes, absolutely. I think going into it with an idea that, You're going to figure it out and it's going to be a journey, right?
And that it will have highs and lows [00:28:00] and that you're going to build a community and learn so much. That really having an open mind is really important.
Janae: Hmm. I was watching a YouTuber who just went through her first pregnancy and delivery and now has a baby, and she's talked about how the people within her circle have really changed.
And a lot of her closer friends that she thought were closer at before the baby came are now more distant and you know, vice versa from some other friends or some new friends that have come into support and. she was just reflecting on how that, that's an interesting change that happened around, as you're saying, you build your community of how some people may be staying within that community, but also some people maybe aren't along for that part of the ride, and how that's okay for those changes to take place.
Penney: Yeah. I think they can still be a part of the community. They may just not be front and [00:29:00] center in the community at the. and to be an open to building that community because you will need it. That's, that's the reality of, and I, and I think the beauty in honoring that, becoming a mom the, the legacy of so many moms before us that are willing to help and accepting that and, and the, the beauty of that as in womanhood?
Janae: Yeah. Yeah. Of not feeling like, , you have to have it all figured out. It's okay to get help. There's a reason why there is that lineage of, you know, past women who have done this and are able to give support. You know, as long as it can be in a way of. , I'm here to support. And you know, there's no right or wrong, but here's what helped me
Penney: Sure. I believe it's lowenstein. And I apologize if I get that reference wrong, that talks about the ghost in the nursery, that you are present in the nursery with your baby. But there's a lot of ghosts that are in [00:30:00] there. Representative, you know, by mothers and grandmothers and great-grandmothers and great-great grandmothers and great-great-great grandmothers that traditions that have been passed down.
And in some cases, aunt and neighbors and I mean, there's so many representations of like what should be and what is and how it is and what's been done that, and expectations that come into that nursery as you're holding that baby. That I think honoring that and also recognizing that and putting them in their proper places is a really important part of becoming a mom.
Janae: Mm-hmm. . Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking of. Like find how to find that. Balance of that tipping point of honoring, as you said, the past wisdom that you're being offered, but also honoring the inner wisdom of how you want to parent. As you were talking about the parenting style that you grew up with versus the parenting style that you wanted to parent with are very different.
Mm-hmm. and yeah. How can you allow maybe the wisdom to filter [00:31:00] through and what are you choosing to pick up and what are you choosing to leave behind? .
Penney: Yeah. I think that's a, a, a big part of that and of coming into yourself as a parent. And it's a fun journey. It's, it's an amazing self-growth moment with the, of some fear attached to it, but knowing that if we're loving them and holding them and we're giving them opportunities to play and grow and fill attachment, we're doing what we need to as parents.
that there's room around that to not have things be the way other people think they're supposed to be. Mm-hmm. .
Janae: Yeah. It doesn't have to follow a perfect formula or a set, strict rules or anything.
Penney: No. You just have to love them and you have to provide 'em attachment and growth and exploration and love and, and play.
That's the important, important pieces of being a parent. So I do think there's a natural process.[00:32:00] .
Janae: Okay. So we have some psychology facts about mother-daughter relationships. Let's
Penney: start by talking about five important pieces between a mother-daughter relationship, uh, that help, uh, that relationship and help development. The first one is having a sense of.
and closeness and a feeling of support. What do you think that meant to you as a daughter to feel supported and close?
Janae: I think that for me it was just knowing that someone else was there. If I. Needed help. And just kind of knowing in the back of my mind that even if I was worried about something or struggling through something, like there's always someone else that can be like bullied into the situation to give advice or [00:33:00] even to take more of an active role.
And I think. , you know, as you move further towards the end of your teenage years and into adulthood, that turns more and more into learning. Where is that boundary of, okay, I need help here. I don't need help here. I just need advice here, or, Nope. I do need like someone to actually intervene and take action.
So yeah, that's, that was my experience.
Penney: Uh, I definitely see that what support looks like changing throughout the years. When I was thinking about that warmth and closeness, I was thinking of some research I read a few years ago about the amount of touch that needs to happen as you're raising children.
And the recommendation was five to eight physical touches a day. That doesn't have to mean like you're, you're hugging or it has to be something really big. But definitely if that's a touch on the head or a touch on the [00:34:00] shoulder or. , uh, at least a few hugs, some sort of physical contact with your children as they grow up five to eight times a day, uh, is important.
So even with my 20 year old that lives at home, she still reminds me that touch is important and she needs to be hugged and, and still have that physical warmth and closeness from her mom. So I know that changes as you age, but just keeping in mind that is important for kids to fill that warmth and closeness from us as
Janae: parents.
Yeah. And this might be a slight off tangent in coming into other relationships, but I mean, just skin hunger in general as a phenomenon. I remember that being I guess, I don't know, like slightly blowing my mind when I realized post the end of, uh, my. High school to early adulthood relationship and before starting back into dating and like I've moved out of the house, you're just with [00:35:00] roommates and it's like you, there is a sense of loneliness around.
Yeah. I can't remember the last time I hugged someone. I can't remember the last time that someone held me in a caring way, you know? roommate situation's a little bit different than family. I know some people grow really close with their roommates and you know, I did have that, but it's, it's different.
And so I remember learning about that and then being like a clique in my head of like, oh, that's why I'm feeling this way. Like that's, I think that's a, a part of loneliness that we don't talk about very often. And, you know, I try to bring up quite often with my. Significant other, my spouse around his grandparents, and after his grandma passed away a few years ago and it was just his grandfather left of reminding him and trying to drop hints around the family of like, Hey, like, you know, hug [00:36:00] him as much as you can give him like, Pat's on the shoulder or any kind of physical touch that you can because he is living alone now and he had a very active social life.
But that doesn't mean that you're getting the same amount of physical affection that you're used to. Like he was married for, I think it was like close to 40 years, maybe even longer. And so yeah, that transition. . It was hard for me, and I remember trying to think of like, okay, how can, what, who are the other people in my life that are maybe going through this and who else could be being affected by that?
Skin hunger. And how do you find time to support that? So,
Penney: so hug your daughter. Hug your mom. Yeah. , hug your people. Drive home, hug your people. , definitely that that doesn't change. That those still are there and that does, that need is still there for closeness and, and that support. The next one is self-confidence and body [00:37:00] acceptance.
This was probably one that I struggled with more. I definitely grew up in a family that was less accepting around different body shapes, and there was a lot of. , like working out exercise, diet, culture, and definitely one, maybe less diet culture, but maybe not of growing up. I was always working out, always exercising, talking about calories.
So this is probably one I I did less well with as a mom, but definitely one as I have adult daughters now that we're talking about and we're having a lot of conversations about, and a conversation that I had with my mom recently that she said, you know, here I am in. You know, late sixties, and I don't know if I'm ever going to accept my body, and I don't know how you're learning to do that.
And so definitely a multi-generational pattern of conversation around that.
Janae: Yeah, I, I feel like this is such a [00:38:00] loaded expectation, I think for moms, because you're getting it from both sides. Uh, All sides almost of, you know, having to live up to these expectations for, in a social way. Also in workplaces, like making sure you're presenting in a way that you know is deemed equitable so you can get equal pay and you know, making sure that you're working up your work.
If you wanna do that. A lot of that depends on your physical appearance, so it's, I'm sure I, I'm sure that's difficult. I know that, I guess I can see that it's like, how do you, how do you find that balance of, okay, I need to try and, you know, Be [00:39:00] aware of how I'm presenting in the world so that I'm not getting ostracized or demeaned or not given the same opportunities.
But at the same time, I wanna show my kids that it's okay to be who you are and you don't need to change and. It's like, how the hell do you find a balance there, ?
Penney: I think it's tricky. Definitely being a professional and running into those barriers. I had definitely work environments where that was part of it, and body acceptance was.
A harder piece, but I think confidence, self-confidence was an easier piece for me. Feeling confident with myself on a professional level and as a mom and as a partner and showing up in the world in confident ways. I do think that was an easier one. And I don't know the body acceptance and self-confidence or necessarily.
they have to be in tangent with each other. I think you can be confident in other areas of your life and really helping your daughters be confident [00:40:00] in showing up in the world as women in their power and in their strength is important.
Janae: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Like there are other components to that.
I do see where with. , other female friends, and then within myself where those patterns or those habits of eating, thinking about food, thinking about your appearance, even the clothes that you wear and the choices that you make around how you present yourself. It is very ingrained and then passed on, like Yeah, absolutely it is.
Yeah. I like that you, you talked about, The self-confidence piece of that, of, mm-hmm. , That you can get, you can start getting self-confidence from other places and then allow that to seep into body acceptance.
Penney: Yeah, definitely. And I think obviously changing the conversations we're having as we're moving forward and understanding more about body acceptance, that we can always do better for the next generation than what we did for our own.
That that's important. [00:41:00] Yeah. Yeah.
Janae: Always trying to get a little bit. Better .
Penney: Yeah, absolutely. Always moving forward and improving. So the next one is emotional burden sharing and physical comfort. I think this is another one that changes when you move through that mother-daughter relationship. I do think. , I definitely have seen both sides of the oversharing from a mom perspective and a parent perspective where the child becomes parentified and feeling like they have to take care of the parent.
And then the other side of that, where you have parents or you talk to parents or kids, either one that just know nothing about their parent because there hasn't been any sharing, and they're really not seen as human because they don't talk about the human experience and what it's like to be a human.
Uh, so I. Give a cautionary tell on both sides of that, that it's important to have boundaries and not let your child. think that they need to take care of you, [00:42:00] but also be okay with sharing that you're human. I, I really think the presentation of that is, Hey, I'm going through this. I've got this, and I'm confident in dealing with it.
But just so you know, there's things going on in my life and in my world too. I know I've talked with other moms about moments when. . We've had conversations with our children, mostly once we get to adults, but sometimes when they're younger, uh, hey, just so you know, I'm human too and I have feelings too, and you need to understand that I can't always show up in the way you need me to show up because I have human emotions and things that I'm dealing with.
So definitely not being so transparent that they feel like they have to take care of you, but not being so stalwart that you're inhuman that it's an important balance to have. Mm-hmm. .
Janae: Yeah. I really appreciated that. I was watching a video online the other day, and basically it was like the importance of te like saying, I'm sorry to your kids, or like [00:43:00] apologizing when you make a mistake to your kids.
Mm-hmm. . And I was like, yeah, that was always a thing. I do appreciate that you were never afraid to say yeah, I messed up and you know, I'm sorry and here's what I'll do different. And then it really did create a space of it's okay to make mistakes and also to go back and forth of the parent saying, yeah, I messed up here.
And then the kid has more space to then say, yeah, here's my part in it too. So it doesn't feel like the burden of responsibility is always all on the kid. I do feel like a lot of the times it ends up being that way in other Parent kid relationships that I've seen or that I've even experienced myself is like the burden of responsibility is all on the kid of like, you didn't do this.
You know, you didn't follow this rule, or whatever it is. And yeah, I like that. It was very much so. I'm human. You are human. You know, there is a, [00:44:00] a different level of responsibility and there's a different level of power just innately within the relationship. But also I think just pointing that out was enough to dismember it a little bit and create more space for us to just grow up.
And yeah, like I said, no, it's okay to make mistakes, and then be able to own up to our own mistakes. Like that was a good model.
Penney: Yeah, I think just remembering that really what we're doing is modeling behavior, and whatever we model is what our children are going to do. So if we want our children to be.
Emotional and recognize emotions and have emotional conversations, and being able to say, I'm sorry, in relationships, and that's something we have to model in that relationship. That's their primary relationship, and that relationship is going to transfer to other relationships. So really being considerate about what we want that relationship for them to look like in their future.
It's important. [00:45:00] Hmm?
Janae: Yeah. Yeah. What do you see as emotional burden sharing? , how has that shifted with your own relationship with your mom?
Penney: I don't share burdens a lot with my mom. Definitely during different phases of life. My mom has been there and I've definitely shared, but also realizing it's, uh, this is what's happening, but not, they don't step in and rescue or fix.
or that's not their responsibility, but just being a listening ear, providing empathy and support, and then asking we talked about this earlier about that. Do you need support around this? And what does that look like is important. So I think emotional burden and sharing and that, you know, you're not alone.
And and yeah, I have a, a, a relationship with my mom. If I needed to call and tell her about things as I have in the past, then she's there. But not an expectation that I share everything that I get to choose. [00:46:00] So, yeah,
Janae: I have noticed, and just from conversations we've had around it with like you figuring out this with your relationship with your mom, us trying to figure it out a little bit.
But I wanna maybe start a conversation about what is it like to have your child. Come to you with here's something that I'm dealing with and have it be related to something that maybe was caused, or the origin was from something that happened in their childhood. Or, and y you know, mom, guilt is such a big thing, or feeling like you have to take responsibility for.
and I know you've had moments or conversations with your mom where it's felt like, you know, I just needed her to listen. I didn't want her to say, you know, I'm sorry, or take a hundred percent responsibility for what had happened, or, you know, feel guilty about it, but [00:47:00] just that you needed your story to be heard.
And I was wondering if you've learned anything on the flip side of that. Like if you've been on. opposite end of that conversation between the two of us of having that paradox of okay, now I'm on the opposite side. Now I'm having to not step into that apologetic or. Flipping it around so that I feel guilty instead of just, uh, listening.
Like, do you know what I'm talking
Penney: about? Sure, absolutely. I think we're talking about difference between shame and guilt. Mm-hmm. . That would be my thoughts on that, if that like guilty pushes us to wanna do things differently where shame is like, we're innately not enough. And I definitely have stepped into that a hundred percent with.
With the reality that I made a lot of mistakes and I can own those and step into that of here's mistakes I don't wanna repeat and here's how I would do it different or could do it different without going into a place of [00:48:00] shame of that I'm a a bad mom or a bad person. And I hope, and I, and I know this is something that I definitely have worked on probably more intensely in the last three years, but I hope that's always a place of, Hey, can I tell you about how this impacted me? Absolutely. You can tell me how it impacted you. Also recognizing that's your story, and I know that was painful and I know that was d.
and always knowing I did the best I could in the situation with what I had, and giving myself that self-compassion that other people would've made the same choice. Other people have made the same choice. Mm-hmm. and I always was doing my best, but it wasn't perfect and I have a lot more knowledge than I did then.
And so that's how Combat the Guilt is giving myself that self-compassion while also hearing the story because that reality is valid. I think the interesting flipped side to that is hearing between my four kids, if one of them. Or one of you right, brings up a, [00:49:00] Hey, I thought this was really bad in our childhood, how therefore perceptions are so different that there's almost this, like, how could you say that that's not true?
And it's difficult for them to, to see those different experiences and to have that. , different perspectives. It's really interesting, and I've seen that with my own siblings too, that between the eight of us, there are definitely different perspectives about what childhood was like and relationships were like.
And so that's really interesting.
Janae: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was thinking about this actually just recently about how, on the one hand it can feel a little bit of. a weird mismatch or betrayal or like, you start questioning your own reality of like, am I just, was I overreacting about that or did I just, you know, experience something differently?
What happened there? And realizing that, you know, for example, between me and my siblings, it really was like, [00:50:00] Who, who was in what job when, uh, by the time this person graduated, you know, what else was happening at home for the other few years that you were there? You know, families generally start out more impoverished than, uh, than they end.
And so, you know, your young or your older siblings are gonna have a different reality than your younger sibling as they maybe have more opportunities or privilege as the family. grows instability and wealth and you know, like depending on what job your mom has and your dad has, and then if that switches at any time or adding new siblings or what mental health struggles your parents are going through at different phases, like all of those things can impact what is happening within the home.
And so it makes sense that depending on the age of the kid, whether they're still living at home or. , you know, all of that can make changes to how they [00:51:00] perceive their growing up.
Penney: Yeah. And I think something that we've talked about of, and, uh, a belief that, Isn't perfect, but I'm working on in the wording of it.
So if it comes across harsh, I apologize. But the idea that I did the best I could, right. And as a parent you do. And then once they're adults, my job isn't to fix the mistakes that I made then it's not to repeat them, it's not to continue doing them, but it's also to ask them, what do you need support around making this change?
But also it's your job to figure it out. , it's your job to figure out your wounds and it's your job to figure out what that looks like and to set boundaries around that with your parents. And it's their job to respect those. So I can listen to the stories and listen to the pain and be present for that and give empathy around that.
I also have done my best and at this point, , it's your job to figure out. Mm-hmm. .
Janae: Yeah, I was going to loop back to [00:52:00] that actually, because I feel like you did a really good job of explaining on the parent's side how to show up to that conversation. But something I've learned on the child's side of showing up to that conversation is definitely like not having any expectations stepping into it of.
How much responsibility you feel like your parent needs to take or what you want them to say, or whose side they're going to take. If it feels like there are sides, addressing all of that emotional attachment and baggage to the story before you step into that conversation, I feel like is very important.
Because if you don't, it can. Blowing up in your face, I feel like especially if neither of you are in a good space to talk about it. So yeah, prepping maybe for that conversation and not going in with expectations. That one, you don't have any role or fault in it because there's two [00:53:00] sides to every interaction that we have.
And so being able to recognize that you also have a part in the. and then also honoring that your parent is going to have their own experience and background of what was going on. And depending on your age, you might not have known that full background or known what was fully going on at the time to be able to fully understand what was the context of the situation.
And and yeah, I think. going into it ultimately without any expectation or need of a specific outcome is good. Because if you go in there into the conversation hoping for one specific outcome, it's more than likely that you're not going to get that. And that can be really painful and it can make trying to have those conversations again really hard.
So yeah, the right prep work and also asking. Parent or whoever it is, you're stepping into that [00:54:00] difficult conversation with like, Hey, I have something, I wanna talk to you. Is this a good time? Like do you have the emotional bandwidth to deal with this right now? Like, don't just drop a bomb on them and then leave
Penney: Yeah, I definitely, in helping people prep for that conversation, ask the question, what are you hoping to get outta that conversation? . And then what does that look like to get that? Because I do think that can be part of the conversation as you're stepping into that with your parent about I really need to have a conversation with you and what I really need from you is just to hear my story.
, or I need you to hear my story, but I'm okay hearing your story too. Mm-hmm. , because those are different and being very clear, like, I'm not expecting an apology, or maybe you are expecting an apology, but I think it's okay. I know it's okay to first identify what your expectations are because you are gonna have some, and then be very clear about those with the person you're having the conversation with.
Janae: Yeah. I guess what I, I, I guess what [00:55:00] I mean, , yes, you're gonna have expectations going into that conversation, but trying to have the control over the other person. Yeah. Ha. Try not to have like, yeah, say you have to do it this way. Yes. But instead, what can you do within yourself to say, no matter what outcome, I know that I've done the inner work, that I'm gonna be okay with me and I'm gonna be okay with holding that story without them needing to you.
Validate it in any way or get that apology. Mm-hmm. , because like you said, you can ask for it, but that doesn't mean that you're gonna get it. And so I guess, yeah, knowing your expectations and trying not to have too many that are reliant on a specific response from your parent because yeah, you don't have control over how they're gonna take it and.
Heart. Yeah,
Penney: absolutely. So asking yourself that question of, if I'm not able to get that, am I gonna be okay with that? And then the other part of that is, are they [00:56:00] capable of doing that? Is are they in emotional place or have they done their own work that this is a conversation that can happen in a healthy way?
And if not, If you wanna stop the conversation, that's great. Just know it may not come out the way you want it to and be okay with that.
Janae: Hmm. What would you advise people who maybe recognize that their parent isn't in a place to have that conversation, but they still feel the need to have it? Is there, I know some people is like, you know, write a letter.
Or, or is there any other advice or action that they can take? . I
Penney: think if you wanna write a letter, you can write a letter. I think if you wanna do a text message or an email, you have those options. Also, to me, the biggest thing is accepting whatever that is gonna bring with it. If you're gonna drop a bomb, you have to expect the fallout.
So recognizing what the fallout zone is gonna be and what that's gonna look like is important. So, I'm gonna say this because I feel the need to say this, and I feel like this [00:57:00] would empower. . This is also what I think the possible outcomes of this can be. And if I'm going to take the action, I can also accept the outcome that, that accountability responsibility piece with that.
Hmm.
Janae: Yeah. I, I more mean like write a letter that you never intend to send. Like that they never mean, you don't mean for them to ever see, to try so to do your own
Penney: internal processing. Sure you can. Yeah. A lot of people will write the letter and burn it or write the letter and shred it or, Say it out loud to the wind or do a, a third chair where they can talk to the third chair with their therapist.
I think there's a lot of options for getting that out without having it be said to the person, there's a lot of choices with that.
Janae: Well, that was a good one. We had a lot of conversation around that one. Yeah. All right. What's our next, uh,
Penney: thing? Authoritative parenting. Oh,
Janae: that's interesting. I don't know how I feel about that one. , how come? I think anything with the word authority or authoritative, uh, rubs me the wrong way. [00:58:00] I don't wanna be, I mean,
Okay. I say those are the grain of salt of I don't wanna be an authority parent, but also I understand that is your job. Like you are there to take care of your kid. And there is some authority piece there. I guess I just see where that can be taken too far.
Penney: Authoritative is that in the middle place where you are setting healthy rules and boundaries with healthy.
Expectations around that of like, if you make this choice, it's authoritarian. So it's permissive, authoritative, authoritarian. So we're not being authoritative. We're being authoritative. So that's, here's the expectations, here's the boundaries, and if you choose to cross them, this is gonna be the outcome of that.
And then giving. , the children or the child, a chance to be able to make that choice so you're not permissive in letting them do whatever they want. You're not their friend, but you're also not like, this is how you will your life because I'm in charge of [00:59:00] it. But fully recognizing kids have autonomy and from the time they're.
Two years old, you are giving them those options and those choices to be able to make choices for their own life. I said a hundred times, and you heard me say this when you were growing up, if I don't teach you how to make choices now, you're not gonna know how to make 'em as an adult, and I am not following you around for the rest of your life, making choices for you
So definitely, here's the boundaries, here's my expectations. and then having responses to those, they don't have to be punishments or consequences, but some sort of a response. And sometimes the best response to that is a natural response. So definitely that authoritative parenting of I'm here to support you.
I'm here to help you talk through a choice. I'm here to even help support you after a natural consequence comes because those are gonna come. But not being an authoritarian that you're telling people what, not telling your kids what they have to do and being a helicopter parent and over-involved or permissive where you just don't care.
But somewhere in the middle of that.
Janae: Hmm. Yeah, I can [01:00:00] definitely see where those two extreme ends both come from a place of like fear. of, yeah. Needing to over control because you were afraid of something bad happen to happening to your kid, or, you know, afraid that they're going to fail or get hurt or something.
And then on the opposite side where you yeah, don't have, good boundaries or rules or structure where that is a place of fear of, you know, I want them to. love me. I want them to always be happy or give them everything they need. And yeah, then that does lead into like stepping into help or rescue.
And then like you said, when you become an adult, it's paralyzing. Mm-hmm. , I have a lot of friends who are not a lot of friends, but I have met a lot of people and I have friends that they're going through that still like, [01:01:00] you know, in their thirties and trying to figure. , how do I make decisions on my own?
How do I deal with like the uncomfortable anxiety that comes with making a decision that no one tells you what to do and how do you combat that anxiety? And you just make the decision and you hope it's the best one. And then if it's not, you just, you have to deal with it. Like you said, you have those natural consequences that come up.
I think that's why the one before, or maybe it was the two, two before this, of like having support mm-hmm. is important and if you still need that support further into adulthood, that's okay. But yeah, slowly gaining more independence so that you can make those choices and you can have more autonomy and more agency around your life and not feel like you have to be constant.
checking in with someone about the decisions that you're
Penney: making. Yeah. I think the other side of that, when you were talking about that place of fear, I think there's also a fear of, you were talking about [01:02:00] mom guilt, right? If my child isn't successful, then how does that reflect on me? Mm-hmm. , or what did I do wrong?
So really just recognizing that they're their own little people and it's really just not, you do the best you can. You model the behavior, you give them opportunities when they have a safety net and then they've gotta just do it. And that's not a reflection on you as a person, it's just them figuring out what direction they wanna go in their own life.
And there's no wrong way for that. It's their choices. Mm-hmm. and what that looks like for them. And. . That's okay.
Janae: Yeah, that's a really good observation of, the interesting dynamic that, I don't know if it's just an our culture thing. I would imagine it's it's not, in fact, I know in other cultures it's sometimes even worse where it is so much of the parents is so deeply invested in their kid because it does feel like a direct reflection of them or the whole family.
and how [01:03:00] that does impact your ability to parent effectively and allow your kids to learn from mistakes and Yeah. Yeah. I like that you brought that up. That's a good
Penney: point. Yeah. So the last one is high, but not impossible expectations. I actually read a lot of what parents of highly successful or as of success.
children did, and all of them say we had expectations. We also let natural consequences happen and we. Them choose a lot of choice involved, but, but there do have to be a level of expectation about how you show up, even if that's, this is how we have manners in our house. This is how we treat our house.
This is how we treat others in our house. This is how we treat people outside of our house. This is how we connect. But there do have to be expectations around. Around those things, around grades, around attendance, around life and [01:04:00] relationships. Obviously not overly harsh like consequences around those.
Most of the time that's just a, uh, you know, I'm disappointed. Can we try that again? And what got in the way of being able to do that? And can we try it a different way? But expectations are important as a parent, children, especially boys and their brains is they're developing. They need expectations and so do girls.
And so as parents, that's our job to set that. not too high, but we do need to have some. Hmm.
Janae: Yeah. Bringing it back to like the mother-daughter dynamics did you notice anything between either your relationship with your mom and variations of expectations or as a parent, parenting daughters versus your son?
Penney: I think the expectation as adult is from my mom is more around how you treat people, how we're kind and how we stay [01:05:00] connected as a family rather than how we perform in other ways. I don't think those things matter to her. It's really just about how we have relationships and how. how we portray ourself or work how we interact in a social setting with family members.
Gotcha.
Janae: All right, so we're gonna do. our switch over into it takes two. So our question for it takes two is what's the biggest struggle you find in this relationship and what's the biggest triumph that you find within the relationship?
Penney: Biggest struggle in my relationship with my mom was feeling heard and seen, and the biggest triumph was being able to do that with my own children. Hmm.
Janae: What about for you? I think the biggest struggle. Has been[01:06:00] maybe going through moments of restructuring through different phases and then the biggest triumph. Hmm.
I don't know an easy question, but a hard question. . What is the biggest triumph with the relationship? I think. The biggest triumph is still maintaining a very strong and connected relationship Through each of those transitions, the transitions can feel rocky, but on the other side, the relationship has always grown a little stronger.
And even if it's shifting into different, Shapes, I guess. it's still just as connected. Okay, now we get to spin the wheel. So if you get an even, you're going to answer how was your relationship with your body influenced by your mom? And then if you get an odd, your question is, what is a physical trait from your mom you see in yourself?
Okay. [01:07:00]
Penney: Uh, I got an even, so how was my relationship with my body influenced by my mom. My mom has always been very weight conscious and worried about her weight and what she ate, and dieting and exercise and that definitely, I can see that translated absolutely right into my life. Gotcha.
Janae: All right.
I got an even two. All right. I think my relationship with my body was similarly influenced around weight and like diet, like what are we eating, kind of things. I would also say that the importance of. Connection with your body. You were the one of the first people to ever recognize that within me.
And also to remind me of that when I was in a phase, uh, in a year of my life where I was extremely disconnected and [01:08:00] I didn't have those tools of a reminder of, you know, when was the last time you, danced or did anything physical with your body? Like that was always. , good outlet and expression for you, and how can you regain that?
And it was that question that led me to take my first yoga class, which has literally changed my life. So a big one, I would say. But yeah. Okay. Quick, rapid fire. If you had to be a Disney character, what would it be? Ooh,
Penney: I don't know. Maybe Blue The bear. I really like him. He's fun. Oh, that's cute.
Janae: Uh, what is your favorite season?
and where did you go on your last vacation? Big vacation,
Penney: little vacation.
Janae: Well, however you wanna define that.
Penney: Vacations are important to me and time off is important to me. So I would say little vacation was Salt Lake, big Vacation was probably Elk City Idaho. So what about for you
what is your favorite season?
Winter. Okay, . [01:09:00] And where did you go on your last vacation?
Janae: Uh, Seattle . Okay. Cool. Well, we made it in the nick of time. Five minutes to spare for our time slot here. This was a long one, so if you're still here, thanks for joining us. Some quick reminders. Go hug your mom. Go hug your daughter. uh, maybe have those hard conversations and remember that through the changes in phases of motherhood and daughter hood, There's no shame.
There's no shame. It's okay to ride the wave. Yeah, make absolutely cool. All right, we'll see you later. Bye. Bye.
