Ep. 39 Caretaking Vs. Caregiving Pt. 2: A Deep Dive Into Caretaking
In this episode of 'Untangling Relationships,' hosted by Janae and Penney, the discussion centers around caretaking, part two of a three-part series on caretaking versus caregiving. Key topics include recognizing caretaking behaviors in oneself and others, understanding the motivations and consequences of caretaking, and the impact of blurred boundaries on relationships. The hosts also delve into the importance of holding boundaries, the repercussions of covering up for caretakers, and strategies for changing caretaking dynamics. The episode provides reflections, tips, and the importance of looking at internal validation, all aimed at fostering healthier relationships.
Episode Timestamps
00:00 Introduction to Untangling Relationships
00:20 The Importance of Relationship Check-Ins
00:39 Challenges in Maintaining Relationships
01:05 Impact of Daily Life on Relationships
02:35 Autopilot Mode in Relationships
03:33 Technology's Role in Relationship Dynamics
05:26 Building and Eroding Trust
06:44 Feeling Unappreciated and Resentment
10:29 New Ventures and Infidelity Risks
12:11 Setting Aside Time for Relationship Check-Ins
16:42 Monthly Relationship Check-In Questions
20:47 Understanding Conflict from Your Partner's Perspective
21:04 The Importance of Vulnerability and Apology
21:17 Effective Communication Techniques
23:01 The Role of Accountability in Conflict Resolution
26:46 Monthly Relationship Check-In Questions
30:24 Reflecting on Intimacy and Support
Relationship Check ins
Janae: [00:00:00] Welcome to untangling relationships, a conversation between a counselor and a yoga teacher, a gen X-er and a millennial and a mother and daughter. Join us as we explore the ins and outs of relationships with your host, Janae and Penney. Hello and welcome. Welcome to another episode we are going to be doing. An episode about relationship check-ins today, , and kind of talking about the work that goes into maintaining your relationships. , so like a maintenance episode here.
Janae: yeah, well, we'll get started just with our regular questions and reflections.
Penney: Yeah, we've talked about this before. The idea that when we're first in a relationship, we spend a lot, a lot of time having conversations and really getting to know the person. And then over time. That really grows distance and we spend less time. Uh, we really spent a lot of time putting out fires and other areas focused on other relationships outside of that. romantic intimate partnership that we have with our partners.
Penney: , and [00:01:00] it impacts the relationships. It starts to feel lonely and distant.
Janae: Yeah. And I think that you can definitely feel when it stops being a priority or. I guess not even a priority, but it just. Everything else starts to get in the way. Yeah. Um, and so you might not consciously be putting it on the back burner, but that's kind of where it ends up.
Penney: Yeah. It's that? Well, I know they're always going to be there, especially if we have good amounts of like that trust and trustworthiness.
Penney: So we. We start to actually lose some trustworthiness, , knowing that that's like protecting the sacred in that. Not primary. , relationship comes first. It really starts to become not first. As, , demands of work, demands of children, demands of family, maybe aging parents. , or anything really can get in the way even household stuff.
Penney: I know that can definitely get in the way my house is theirs. , fires to put out and projects that need to be done and things that need to be wrapped up or even demands of extended family vacations and [00:02:00] weekends. And, , if you're in a divorced family situation, Um, which Janae can attest to that.
Penney: There's a lot of like his mom, his dad, my mom, my dad. And there's a lot of splitting of families. You have to spend time with the can really start to impact your relationship.
Janae: Yeah, we definitely have to make conscious decisions about. Wa where our time has going and what we're doing with it. So.
Janae: So we will hop into our first question, um, here or reflection here. Um, we have the. Or Penneywise and you go ahead. Since you wrote them.
Penney: I kind of already. You stated this when I jumped into it, without saying we were jumping into it, um, it's that this, the relationships get put on autopilot where we do the same thing over and over again.
Penney: I know, depending on schedules. Um, in my relationship, there may be times I don't see my partner at all because he's asleep when I get home and he's um, and I leave in the morning before he gets up. More vice versa. And that really can create distance, especially if there's [00:03:00] weekend plans and things that you really don't want to spend time together.
Penney: So really distance can start and just grow over time. As you do a lot of things separate, or you're not really conscious, or mindful of the time that you spend with your partner, you might be surprised. But how much that's changed and how much time we really do talk to them. It'd be interesting to play with that.
Penney: And like write down, we spent this much time in conversation or this much time and engaging each other, not just around. Putting out fires, household tasks, kids tasks, money tasks. Work tasks, but really on couple tasks.
Janae: Yeah. And we've talked about this on some of our social media reels that we've done before, but another thing that gets in the way and kind of puts things on autopilot is, um, using technology in the home.
Janae: And so. I have noticed that in my relationship too, of, um, you know, we might not have any plans. We might be at home, but we're not spending a lot of time connecting with each other because we're both. [00:04:00] Either doing our own projects at home, or we're both, , watching different things or, um, I reading and he's playing a game or something like that.
Janae: And I think that you can do those things and have it be. A connecting experience, but you just have to be more conscious about how you're doing it. So like, for example, on Sunday night, my partner was like, you know, I was getting ready to sit down and read my book for the evening. And he was like, where are you going to be?
Janae: Because I want to be near you, but I want to play my game for a little bit before I go to bed. And so I was like, oh, well, where do you want to be? And so then we both ended up in the living room. Next to each other. So we're getting a little bit of physical touch, even though we're both doing separate things. We weren't necessarily engaging in conversation or connecting in that way, but there was still a conscious effort to be made. Of like, We're still going to try and be near each other or be around each other. Um, And if he hadn't said that I would have probably read my book in our bed, in the bedroom and he would have been out in the living room and we would have [00:05:00] spent that hour not connecting at all. Yeah.
Janae: So I think it's just, um, The autopilot. You can get out of that auto pilot just by finding. Little pieces here and there of. Is there a way to change this behavior? Change our plans. To make them just a little bit more inclusive towards each other. Um, and another thing that came up for me when you were talking about that. The trust building trust. Um, It's interesting how we spend a lot of time at the beginning of the relationship, truly trying to build that trust up, but then we get comfortable in that trust.
Janae: And then. We let it and then it erodes and we let it go by the wayside. Um, and then it can almost feel like a weird. Betrayal almost when you try and step back into those trust spaces and that trust is gone and it can feel really disorienting when you're like, oh, what happened? Like. Maybe nothing big happened to [00:06:00] erode, that trust.
Janae: Um, but just, it happened slowly over time without you even realizing it. Um, and so I think it's funny that I'm sure there's a lot of things in life that reflect that of like, you feel like it's solid. So you turn your. Attention towards other things. And then by the time you're turned back, it's, it's not solid anymore.
Penney: Yeah. It's painful.
Penney: It really, if you think about every time your partner chooses Facebook or Instagram or time with other people or a movie or whatever over you. Um, those hurt those feel like tiny betrayals and messages about how important the relationship is to them. And that definitely builds up in resentment over time.
Penney: Yeah. So number two, we often underestimate the amount of, um, the amount that our partners see and appreciate us unless we hear it. Um, we start to think we're alone. Um, our victories, our S uh, sacrifices go and noticed in the day of the day-to-day business of being in a [00:07:00] relationship. I think this is so true.
Penney: If we're not having those connected conversations. Uh, we don't know that our partner sees this and appreciates us. We really start to get in our own narrative and our own view about, they don't even know what I do. They don't even know that I, I cleaned off the counter and did their dinner dishes, or they didn't even notice that I did the laundry or change the sheets because you're not talking, you're not connecting and it can start to feel very lonely.
Penney: And again, that resentment builds up when we really, we don't talk about it, but if we bring it up and we're having conversations around, you know, I appreciate you. I see you. Uh, we really know that our partner does see us and recognize the sacredness of the relationship.
Janae: I think that this comes up a lot for new parents, um, with all the extra tasks that come from. Um, childcare. And you can both really end up on opposite sides of schedules or tasks like you naturally divide tasks, or maybe you talked about it and divided your [00:08:00] tasks. Um, but then it just becomes an assumed thing of like, well, that's their thing.
Janae: So they should be doing it. Um, but there. There can still be conversations and appreciations around like, Hey, I'm noticing. You're doing amazing at this, or I really appreciate you taking care of this and yeah. When, when you're not being conscious of it, it's really hard to do those things.
Penney: And we start to feel like we're alone.
Penney: I agree. I mean, we know in your parenting that marital satisfaction really dips during those first five years. And so it's so important to work on that, but I also think not just around parenting, but you start a new job or your job role changes and more focus and attention gets put towards that. Or you buy a. A new house and you're moving and you're putting things together or you start something new in the yard or you start a new project, or, I mean, just think about all the things that really pull attention away and anything new is going to pull an extra amount of attention away from the relationship.
Penney: And if we're not doing these check-ins that we're talking with our [00:09:00] partner and really exploring our world in our day. And how are you feeling in the relationship and how are you feeling about the relationship and where do you need more time? Or do you want more time? It really does start to feel like we're lone wolves and our partners doing their thing, and we're doing our thing.
Penney: And. They're not understanding what we're going through and the stress that we're under, because that's what we're sucked into. And it really becomes less of a partnership and more of a solo adventure.
Janae: Yeah. I think that the phrase that comes to mind when you describe that as feeling taken for granted of. Like the relationship gets taken for granted. Like, well, let's just assume that we're going to be together. Um, without necessarily the maintenance or work that goes into keeping that, or it's just assumed that you're going to do certain tasks without, um, Appreciation or checking in whether that needs adjusting.
Janae: Um, we've worked with a lot of couples in the past where we do the division of labor exercises and the mental load exercises. And, you know, they start talking about it and it's [00:10:00] like, oh, well, I thought you were okay with that. Or I thought that you liked that chore. And then they're like, no, I never wanted that.
Janae: I didn't want that. It's just how it. Ended up happening. And so unless you're consciously trying to have conversations about these topics, like things can just fall into place and then there's no check or balance to. Um, to do a check in around whether that's actually what you both wanted.
Penney: Yeah. I think it's important to note here.
Penney: Um, just kind of as a, um, Maybe a warning that really, when we do start down this path, especially if it's a new work adventure or a new adventure that involves other people, this is where infidelity can become a really big red flag. Because if we start to feel like we're spending more time with a new person and this new person, let's say it's a business thing, you're starting a new business, or you have a new. Um, role and you have a partner in the business that is doing things with you.
Penney: You start to share more things with that person. You know, this is what's [00:11:00] happening. Here's the next steps. How is this going? And we're doing a lot more check-in with them, or we're feeling more distant from our partner because our partner is not asking those questions and not involved, and we're not involving them. Um, that really, we can step into that comparison of all this person sees the struggle that I'm going through in there. Uh, asking me how I'm doing and they really see that I'm struggling or I'm striving, or I'm pushing hard in this new venture.
Penney: And my partner's not, we're going to start to make that comparison. And then the new shiny thing is going to look a lot better than the old thing. That doesn't check in and know who we are. Yeah, it can start to cause a divide. Definitely.
Janae: Yeah. And, uh, you know, another thing about this that leads towards that infidelity is that eroding of trust.
Janae: Yeah. So it's, uh, yeah, all around. Not good.
Penney: Sure because trust is, I know you have my back and if I'm starting something new and I don't feel like my partner cares or sees, I don't trust them to have my back and be that for me. Cause they really don't care and vice versa. The partner's feeling the same thing on the other end of. You know, [00:12:00] you're doing this new thing and you don't trust me enough to be a part of it or want to include me. Um, to have those conversations. Yeah.
Janae: Yeah, it definitely goes both ways. Yeah.
Janae: All right. Our last one here is, um, it's important to set aside, time to check in around big questions and ensure that plans are being followed through. And we're being mindful of the relationship and our partner. So. I think that. The biggest thing that we always try and have couples do the last day of retreat, or if we're doing a workshop with them or online course is. Put it in your calendar. Yeah, set aside actual time.
Janae: Don't just say, oh yeah, we're going to do that because you won't, it's a, it's just how you do anything. Habit creation. Like maybe if you've been doing your check-ins for. A whole year or several years, you maybe don't need calendar reminders anymore, but until [00:13:00] you've done it over and over and over again, and have those habits built up, you're not going to.
Penney: Um, I think it's also easy to accidentally on purpose or not right.
Penney: Forget about it because you're going to ask the hard questions during the check-in and you're really going to. a dig into what's going well and what's not going well. And we avoid those in relationships. So we know because of those perpetual issues that continue to come up. That there's some avoidance around stepping into those because of fear around stepping into those, this is that practice makes perfect using skills.
Penney: And if it's on the calendar, you agree to do it. We're going back to that building trust and trustworthiness. Right? I know you're going to show up for the relationship. And I know you care enough about how I'm doing to want to check in on the relationship. So definitely a trust building exercise.
Janae: Yeah, it's interesting.
Janae: The dynamics that come up when you're in that limbo period of, are we going to follow the plan or are we not going to follow the plan? And I think that there's a few dynamics and can pop up, you could have one partner [00:14:00] that's kind of waiting for you to bring it up as proof. That you care that you care. Always
Penney: I hear couples bring that all the time, I'm always the one that bring it up.
Penney: So I didn't, and I knew you wouldn't and you didn't cause you don't really care. Yup. Yup.
Janae: Yup. I think that's a common dynamic and then there's other, the avoidance one that you're talking about of, well, I'm just going to wait until they bring it up. And then if they don't like, oh, then we don't have to do it. Um, and you don't have to step into that vulnerable space or you. You don't have to, um, yeah.
Janae: Talk about things that maybe feel scary. Um, and it kind of reminds me of like, when you were a child and your parent was like, okay, After this show, it's time to start getting ready for bed. And then the show ends and the kids like frozen. They're like, if I don't move, if I don't say anything, maybe they'll forget that we made that agreement out of sight out of mind. Yeah.
Janae: And I think that, um, that's a similar dynamic that can happen with that. So, If you are. [00:15:00] Putting it in your calendar. Make sure you show up. Because, yeah, like Penney said, it is a way of building trust. For both of you, I think for the person that maybe falls into the dynamic of, I'm just going to freeze and hold and wait for them to bring it up.
Janae: It builds trust in yourself and in the relationship in your ability to have those big conversations and have them go okay. And it sends that message to your nervous system. We can step into these conversations and we survive and we're fine. And say, and it's a safe, and that partnership can become a safe place to have those kinds of conversations.
Janae: And if you don't practice that for these little things, when bigger things come up. Your body, your nervous system, your mind doesn't have that feeling of this is a safe person that I can bring these issues up with. Um, and so it's important to practice them on these more mundane or smaller things so that when you get to the bigger things, those muscles are already developed.
Janae: Yeah. And then for the person that is maybe like the [00:16:00] holdout of I'm going to wait until. Until they do it until they do it. Uh, it builds trust that, um, that maybe even if they're leading a few of the times, A lot of these conversations that you'll be stepping into have areas that you can bring up issues.
Janae: So that could be something that you just bring up instead of letting it be a passive aggressive thing. Um, because we know if nothing changes, nothing changes. So unless you're verbally saying, Hey, this is frustrating me. I need you to be the one next time we do this to bring it up and to step into at first. And then your partner knows.
Janae: Yeah. But it's not going to change unless you communicate it to them. So. Helpful all the way around.
Penney: Yeah. So tips. Um, this is really, we're going to step into what the relationship, uh, check-in looks like, what questions we're going to ask. Um, during this monthly relationship, check-in that we're going to put together. So the first one first question that you're going to ask, um, your partner, as you step into this check-in is, uh, [00:17:00] what ways have you felt appreciated in the past month?
Janae: Yeah. And if you're somewhere that you have access to like writing. You might be writing this down and we're going to put it in the show notes, but these are the genuine things that every month you can ask each other as your check-in. So yeah. What ways have you felt appreciated in the past month? And also, is there any way that you can, I can, so you would be saying this to your partner.
Janae: Is there any way that I can improve I'm showing appreciation to you and then in the coming month? Um, I think we've talked about this on the podcast before, but it's really funny how many couples come in and they have something. The thing that they're like, oh yeah, I show you appreciation through this and this.
Janae: And then the other partners, like those don't make me feel appreciated that doesn't work. Yeah. That's I appreciate the effort, but that's not exactly what I want or need. Um, and so having this conversation is helpful and also you might have [00:18:00] done, if you've come on retreat with us or done our couples course, you might have already done the culture of appreciation exercise.
Janae: So maybe you've had this conversation before. But we're changing people. We're always evolving. So maybe what you put in your plan when you made it. Isn't accurate anymore. So checking in, is there ways for the next month that you maybe want something different? It needs to be
Penney: tweaked maybe. Yeah, we wanted sticky notes of, uh, I care about you and you need more of them or less of them, or. You need it to look different.
Penney: This is a good way to do that. You know, just how can I improve? Yeah. Small changes. I like that. All right. Number two. Are there any conflicts or concerns we have not addressed in the past month that you would like to address? This is important because we talk all the time about the body's building up, right.
Penney: That we have conflict after conflict. Conflict. And they really do build up over time. And if we can take care of a monthly, how fantastic that you can pull out your aftermath of a fight or your, um, the three skills of an intimate [00:19:00] conversation or the, um, we use that in our course as the, like a conversation roadmaps.
Penney: So it looks a little bit different. Um, or we did something new on retreat this year. So there's lots of different ways to be able to step into this conflict conversation, but you need to have them, you need to say, has there been conflict. Or concerns that we haven't talked about and let's talk about them now. Uh, let's make repairs let's move past them.
Penney: So they, we don't have even more of a built up.
Janae: And I love this because there's a lot of times that something will come up in the moment between my partner and I, and it's like, okay, this is not the time to address this. I know it's not a good time for me. I know. Maybe it's not a good time for them. And so what I'll do is like, oh yeah, I'll talk to him about that later.
Janae: And then later never comes and it does just build up and it might be small. Annoyances or small hurts or things that it's like, well, it's fine if we don't necessarily bring that up, but they do build.
Penney: Yeah. And then we kitchen sink it. Right. Then it's like everything and the [00:20:00] kitchen sink that. Next time we get in a fight. It becomes all the things.
Janae: Yeah. Yeah. You're reaching into the past of every single thing that you haven't resolved or talked about and we're going, it all comes back up. Yeah. Yeah. So. Asking. Are there any concerns? Let's talk about it. Um, Penney for anyone who hasn't come on retreat with us, or doesn't maybe have one of those written skills to practice with what are maybe the top two or three things that you would say. They need to talk about or work through during that hard conversation.
Penney: Well, in order to have a really good conversation, first, we have to, I mean, it's really understanding perspective. Um, what feelings came up for you? What was the story? Brene Brown talks about the story that I'm telling myself is that's a good way to do it. Uh, so the story I'm telling myself about this conflict is from your perspective fully, how you see it. Um, and then these were things that really got in the way for me or were vulnerabilities.
Penney: It could be something from the [00:21:00] past. It could be something from like, I was feeling tired or frustrated or whatever. Um, what are the vulnerabilities? And then an honest apology. Uh, where you get to own your part. I did this, um, I'm sorry for this part of it. And here's what I'm going to do different in the future.
Janae: Um,
Penney: I love that.
Janae: So perfect. Uh, so perspective taking. Um, sharing your perspective, and this is one at a time. So you're splitting into speaker listener roles.
Janae: So whoever's, the speaker will be sharing their perspective. Whoever is the listener will be listening and reflecting back what they're hearing. Um, if you're sharing your perspective or, and I try really hard not to use. I yous or you statements cause that can come off as criticism and blame and a way you can think about that could be like you're a tour guide or you are, um, a reporter as. You know, you're just giving the facts about what happened to you or what's happening in your country or your [00:22:00] neighborhood as a tour guide. Um, and so then you're moving into that. Here's what led up to it.
Janae: This is not a place where we're going to delve into excuses. But how many times have you. Skipped that yeah. Piece. And you go straight to an apology, but then it feels like your partner didn't really understand why or what happened. Um, and it makes it harder to step into that apology because you need your side to be fully heard before you can really. Resolve understanding, proceeds everything.
Janae: So you want to feel fully understood of like, Hey, guess what? I'm not a jerk. Okay. I didn't just do this to be a jerk or whatever. That's kind of the, the example that's coming up for me is like, I don't want my partner to think that I did this maliciously or that I am a jerk. Like there were other proceeding factors that maybe led into this, that it would be helpful for them to know whether it's to prevent it in the future or to just get more understanding like Penney said.
Janae: [00:23:00] So we're going to share that. And then lastly, that accountability piece. So huge. So huge. And saying that it's two steps to that accountability of saying. Here's what I did wrong. And apologizing, like, I'm sorry, how this hurt you or hurt our relationship. And the second step is here's what I'm going to do different next time.
Janae: No. So an action piece to close it off. Um, so those are your steps. So if you. Have that conflict conversation or a concern. You're going to take turns and then you switch roles. Then the other person gets to talk through how it was from their perspective. Even if it seems like this was something that it was one sided or one person did, it needs to take ownership. You need to switch roles and both do it. So both of you under,
Penney: so you feel understood. Double sides of that.
Penney: Also remember as you're giving your story or your perspective or your apology during every step of this. Do one or two sentences and then pause and let your partner mirror back. Um, and I say mirror [00:24:00] because it isn't, uh, it isn't that you don't want to validate your partner, but when you're in a conversation like this, the most important thing is for your partner to feel seen and heard.
Penney: And the way you do that is by giving back their own words. Exactly. As they say them don't change them. Don't get fancy with them. Don't reinvent the wheel. Just give it back. Just like they had said it to you.
Janae: Yeah, let's actually role play that out Penney so that people can hear and feel the difference.
Janae: So I'm going to let you be the speaker. I'm going to be the listener and I'm going to first, not mirror. And then second, I'm going to mirror back what she says. So we're doing the, you want to do the whole conflict conversation. Just one sentence, just a sentence.
Penney: Okay. So a sentence could be, I felt really triggered. Um, I felt really triggered by the music that was playing in the car, which brought up emotions for me.
Janae: Okay.
Janae: So you didn't like the music that I was playing in the car and it made you feel angry?
Penney: Cause so I would immediately say no, that's not what I said. It isn't that I didn't like the music in the [00:25:00] car and it didn't make me angry. See how that can take you down totally into the weeds, right? Yeah.
Janae: And then it can be like nothing I ever say work. Sorry, I'm just thinking about station.
Janae: Exactly. So go ahead and do it again. And we'll reflect the right way
Penney: of the music that was playing in the car, reminded me of something painful and it really triggered me. So, what I'm hearing you say is the music in the
Janae: car. Say it again, the music that was playing in the car reminded me of something painful and it really triggered me.
Janae: So the music in the car reminded you of something painful and it really triggered you. Yes, it did.
Penney: And you, and so we do a lot of the, so what I'm hearing you say, you don't have to do that. It really flows better if you just say so the music in the car. Brought up something painful and really triggered you.
Penney: Yes. So you don't have to do the beginning part. You just do the, so you can make that so much shorter and it flows a lot better.
Janae: I know you don't like that, but when me and Brooklyn do. We always say that it just feels more validating to me. So maybe you could pick and choose. Yeah. For Penney, it's important to have [00:26:00] more flow for me, it just feels more validating and, and it's a trigger, like a cue of like, I'm reflecting now.
Janae: Gotcha. So, um, yeah, you can try it both ways. Um, but yeah, so you can see how that reflection piece is important. And you notice that I asked her to repeat it, so, which is okay. Which is okay. And also it helped me because I realized the first time I was listening through, I didn't hear that piece of that.
Janae: It was, um, it reminded you of something painful of the past. Um, and so. Recognizing that sometimes when you're listening, there's a lot coming at you and it's okay to ask for things to be repeated or to take notes. Yep. So repeat exactly back what you can when you're reflecting. Yup. All right. The next question. The
Penney: next thing that you're going to ask is how has the level of intimacy been in the past month? I like this one, again, talking about emotional intimacy, physical intimacy or intercourse, but really asking.
Penney: Has it been good? Has it [00:27:00] not been good? Has it been enough? Um, if you've been on retreat with us or work with me, and I've assigned you to do your sex date, you're doing this. Check-in hopefully weekly, but it's also good to ask. Has there been enough? Do we need more? Is once a week, not enough. Do you need more physical touch?
Penney: Do you need more? Um, emotional intimacy that we're talking more to each other about emotional check-ins. Um, so this is a good question we have to ask.
Janae: Yeah. And don't let this be like a has. sex good for you this week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then move on. That's not what this is. Don't do that.
Penney: But also remember we get more. We want, if we, um, talk about what our partner does.
Penney: Well, so this for me, this could look a lot, like if you were to ask that question, right? Like, has sex been good for you? Um, that's different than intimacy also just pointing that out, but you can say, oh yeah. You know, on Wednesday when we did it on the counter, that was fantastic. I would really like it.
Penney: If we could do more of that. Or, um, yeah, I loved that. We did that and it was so spontaneous. Could we do it like three times next week? That's a lot better than no, we only did it once and it [00:28:00] wasn't great. Right. Like just making sure we're really talking about what we want more of. So we get more of it.
Penney: It's a good way to phrase this one in the response to that. So it feels building instead of shaming.
Janae: Yeah. So if you're having this conversation lead with what you want more of, and you can break it up into, how has your emotional intimacy feeling like, are you feeling emotionally connected to each other?
Janae: Has your intimacy feeling. Um, like. Physical and physical connection, then also intercourse. They can all be three separate things. And they all lead and go play into each other, but it might be helpful to separate them into those three things so that you're not missing any pieces.
Penney: And then the dune, do we need to make any changes really coming up that from a place of, you know, appreciated that we did this, and this was really fantastic.
Penney: I want more of it. Even if it was like, uh, you know, six months ago when, when we did these things, that was the perfect month for me. Do you think we could try and make next month look like that month? Because these were the [00:29:00] things I've really liked anything you can pull in. It's a positive. Uh, really makes it easier to get more of that.
Janae: Yeah, and I think it makes it easier to get more of, because you are giving your partner something too. Use as a roadmap, like uses a map of like, oh, okay.
Penney: Well, this is what I did it right.
Janae: Yeah. When I think back to six months ago, We were doing this, or I did this specific thing. Or there was just this general vibe and okay.
Janae: I can map that or, or continue to do that in the future. Whereas if you said. I really don't like how it's gone this month, that doesn't give your partner anything to go off of, um, or to map kind of what you want. Um, And it can also bring up feelings of shame and criticism. So we had to be really careful, especially around sex and enemies. Intimacy conversations that we're not stepping into any kind of blame or criticism and defensiveness.
Penney: That's where we would end up in defensiveness around that of like, Well, I did my best or I tried really hard [00:30:00] versus, uh, okay. So I know I can do it. I have done it and I get what you want. And I can do that again. And also the conversation around, like, do you want to make any changes if you've already talked about the positive things? It becomes a conversation around.
Penney: Okay. So what did we do that month that we didn't do this month? Can we talk about what was good about that? So I really know what you want and spell it out. More positive conversation. Yeah. I love that. All right. How have you felt supported in the past month? Again, we're looking for the positives. Um, what were the things that your partner did really well?
Penney: Were the things you appreciated about support? Um, and then is there anything I can do to show more support? Yeah. I felt supported in when you did the grocery shopping and made dinner twice, uh, you know that two times during the month, and if you could do more of that to show me more support around my new business venture, that would be really helpful because I so appreciate it.
Penney: When you see how overwhelmed I am, and you can see that I need that extra support that makes me feel cared for. Um, that's a different conversation then? Um, [00:31:00] no, I didn't feel supported at all. You did terrible. Right. We're going to seven defensiveness and that's definitely a criticism versus a positive way to come at that where your partner feels successful and like they've done well. And you can build on success.
Janae: And notice how we're structuring these questions.
Janae: It's not, have you felt supported it's how have you felt supported in the past month? So we're already setting you up to describe the positive positives, a little things. And I know in some phases of relationships, it can be really hard to think of positive things. But just any small thing. So lead with that.
Janae: Got to retrain
Penney: your brain to look for the positive.
Penney: So we don't get stuck in that negative sentiment override that we think everything our partner does is to hurt us or harm us, but really look for the positives. Look for the good things. And the relationship check-in is all about being able to focus on good things that have happened. And how do we build on those?
Penney: So always wanting to build on positives and point out positives.
Janae: Yeah. And I like that. This allows [00:32:00] for another moment of that reflecting, listen and mirror back. So you can be doing that in this question as well, really? On every quality's question. Do
Penney: you need to be doing it on every question.
Janae: So take turns each of you answering and each of you playing, um, the listener role and mirroring back what you're hearing. So again, you might be taking notes for this, um, or slowing things down and talking through them. So. All right. So those are the questions to ask for your monthly check-in.
Janae: Um, again, I will be sure to put those in the show notes for this episode. And, , we wish you a lot of luck implementing those.
Penney: Put on your calendar, got it scheduled out. And that can be our challenge for the, for the next month. Is the, did we do this? Did we not?
Janae: Yeah. All right. You ready to spin the wheel?
Janae: Yeah.
Penney: I got an odd. The odd question is what do you notice in your [00:33:00] body and emotions when you feel distant in your relationship? Um, I think we've talked a little bit about attachment styles. I am definitely an avoidant, more dismissive attachment style. So I have to start to really pull away as soon as I start to feel that trust or that bond or road. I don't just like step back a little bit.
Penney: I go to like the other side of the world. And just really take care of myself and my own needs and really pull into myself. So I definitely notice a closing off of my emotions of closing off of my body of intimacy, of touch of connection of eye contact. Um, uh, I really, I create I'd take maybe like an inch and make it a chasm.
Janae: Hmm.
Penney: Yeah.
Janae: Yeah, that makes sense. All right.
Janae: All right.
Janae: We got in even. So what do you notice in your body when you feel connected to others, and secure in your relationships? Um, I think there's a feeling of safety and security. That I feel. [00:34:00] And I definitely noticed that it's a lot easier to regulate emotions, so things might come up or, um, you know, there might be issues that come up, but it feels a lot easier and well-managed. Um, I also think that it's easier to not feel isolated or have those feelings of loneliness come up when you're in that connected space. Um, I also think that. Or know that there's a lot of, um, What's the word I'm looking for, like somatic symptoms for, for loneliness or for when you're feeling disconnected.
Janae: There's a lot of extra attention that you feel in your body or. Um, when you're in those disconnected states, you have a higher likeliness of. Um, headaches or there might be more cortisone and adrenaline being released because you're in those bottom parts of your ladder and your [00:35:00] nervous system. And so you might be feeling more pulled towards. Um, oversleeping or overeating or eating things that aren't well-balanced and keeping you feeling well in your body, or there might be a pull towards numbing out, um, with substances or social media.
Janae: And so recognizing that. You might be in that state is helpful. And then you can really see the opposite when you are in those connected spaces. And you can be more regulated with your, with your nervous system. Yeah. So. All right. Um, so closing out our episode here, as Penney said, our weekly challenge this week is going to be to put this on the calendar. Um, Make. Makes the date set a time. Um, probably give yourself at least an hour to have this conversation. Um, and.
Janae: Um, make sure that it's maybe a time that you can. [00:36:00] Really only focus on each other.
Penney: They're like a business meeting, come with pen and paper. Sit down in a place where you're not going to be distracted. Um, show your partner that you're building that trustworthiness, that the relationship matters to you.
Penney: That it's number one to you, and you're coming fully into this conversation because you care enough about them to want to make sure the relationship is going well. Yeah.
Janae: Yup. And then at the end of your check-in. Schedule your next one.
Penney: Also a, just a, if this gets derailed somewhere along the way, maybe you step into conflicts or concerns and things go completely sideways.
Penney: Set aside a time to try again. Don't just say, well, it didn't work. We're not doing it again. But come back together with, I think this is maybe what went really well that we started with and here's areas I think we could improve and then move forward. Don't just give up on it because it doesn't work the first time.
Penney: And most of the time when we're trying something new, it may not go perfect. The first time. Expected, but don't give up on it. Keep trying.
Janae: Yeah. If see, if things go sideways, use your [00:37:00] emotional regulation, your flooding plan. And then come back when you're ready. Or another train schedule. And speak,
Penney: whatever it is, schedule it out, figure it out.
Janae: Yep.
Penney: Yup.
Janae: Alright, good luck with your monthly check-in Penney.
Janae: And I will also be doing. Our monthly check-in, we're going to be setting it on our calendars with our own separate partners. I mean, we could do a check-in with each other, but. Um, but we're going to do it with our partners and we'll EP. 39 Caretaking vs. Caregiving Part 2: a deep dive into Caretaking
Janae: [00:00:00] Welcome to untangling relationships, a conversation between a counselor and a yoga teacher, a gen X-er animal, millennials, and a mother and daughter join us as we explore the ins and outs relationships with your hosts, Janae and Penney.
Penney: Hi, and welcome, and welcome to year three, right. Doing the podcast that we made it two years.
Janae: Yeah. 25. We're here. To happening.
Penney: It
has happened.
Janae: Yeah, I feel like we're so few days in that it's still in the. The lingering period of. Brain fog between the two years.
Penney: Yeah, absolutely.
Janae: But, yeah. So thanks for coming along on the last two, two years. Um, this episode, we are continuing our conversation between caretaking versus caregiving. And this is going to be part two of a three part series on this [00:01:00] topic. Um, part one, we just kind of introduced what those two things are?
Janae: So what is caregiving versus what is caretaking? And in this part, we are going to specifically dive more into caretaking specifically. And we're going to kind of break it down into. How do you recognize this in yourself? If you're doing this, how do you recognize caretaking from someone else in your life?
Janae: And then in what ways could you maybe be reinforcing those kinds of behaviors from people? And then of course, we'll always end with our. Tip section. Um, to help. You dig a little bit deeper and give you some questions to consider. So. without further ado, I think we can hop right into our first section.
Penney: Yeah, absolutely.
Penney: We're we'll talk about how do you recognize caretaking in yourself? Are you a caretaker or are you a caregiver? Um, or do you have some tendencies [00:02:00] of both? Um, based on different relationships? So the first one, if you remember right in the intro episode, that caretaking is that. Um, a very, I don't want to say selfish, but maybe self-serving. Care of others that we get something from it. Um, it's very much about us, not about being other person. Um, that it fulfills a need for us. So, um, the first thing is you believe that taking care of yourself as selfish.
Penney: That's our first kind of a question or reflection around caretaking. Meaning that if I take time away from my family and my partner, For me, my clients, um, then, and I take time for me to go on vacation, to get a massage, to. Anything get lunch. Um, then somehow I'm a selfish person and I'm not deserving of that because my job is to take care of others.
Penney: And so we become very focused on the needs [00:03:00] of others and not really on ourself.
Janae: Yeah. The second one we have to recognize caretaking in yourself is, um, your motivations for. taking care of others. Are driven by the need to feel appreciated. So we'll talk about this a little later in the tip section, but. There's. I guess, penny, you came up with the idea of like, there's a hole that you feel a little bit within yourself, or maybe you feel like this is your only role within the relationship. Is taking care of them and you want to feel that need of, to be appreciated.
Janae: That's the only way you feel seen. And that's the only role that you feel comfortable playing within the relationship?
Penney: Yeah. I think you feel like that is your role that you're not seeing outside of that. If you're not doing something for someone you're invisible. Also [00:04:00] why you don't take care of yourself, right?
Penney: Because you're not deserving of that. Your role is to care for others, not to care for yourself. You're just invisible, unless you're doing that. And I think the word motivation here is really important because we can talk about the appreciated part. But I think the motivation behind it is a really important piece around why am I doing this?
Penney: Am I doing this? Because I care for others. Probably right. You have a care for them. But also my motivation is really driven because I need to feel seen. I need to feel valid. I need to fill enough. And if I don't take care of other people, I'm not enough. I'm not seen and I'm not valid. And so I, I really think the motivation is a big keyword here.
Janae: Yeah, definitely.
Penney: And then the third one is you don't feel like you have a purpose unless you're caretaking someone. Which plays a little bit into the motivations, but I also think when people ask you, what is your purpose in life, or you're having an existential crisis, right? What am I here for? What is my. I [00:05:00] value. It is. Well, I'm here to make sure other people are okay, or to caretake them to do things for them to be there for people to feed the world.
Penney: Uh, you know, I mean, this can go in really big global things and in smaller things, Um, instead of just the general feeling of. I have value. I'm an. I am value and I am enough because I exist because I was born because I'm a part of the world. Therefore I have value. Um, versus I only have value when I am doing something for someone. Being appreciated by someone and get my cup filled or my, my value filled from taking care of others and then recognizing it and saying, thank you. Um, instead of I climbed a mountain today and I feel fantastic with what I've accomplished. There's no value in that.
Penney: Unless someone says, thank you for helping me get up the mountain. Because you're the reason why I'm here. Those are very different feelings and come from very different places.
Janae: Yeah, that leads right into the [00:06:00] fourth reflection. Is it? There's often or always a need for strong, external validation and approval from others, from everything that you do. So similar to going back to that motivation piece, um, you might not be doing the caretaking. Because it's something that you feel like you want to do or needs to be done, but. Because you're looking for someone to say, You're amazing.
Janae: Good job. I wouldn't be here without you. Your sacrifice means so much. Um, And that external validation is everything. And there's very little meaning to your internal validation. You know, how do you feel about it?
Penney: Absolutely. Which is again, why you don't engage in self care, because nobody's going to say thank you very much for taking care of yourself.
Penney: They're going to say. You know, you don't value what you do for yourself or who you are within yourself. It's all about other people valuing you [00:07:00] and seeing your value. So if we look at this in intimate relationships or in, um, romantic partner relationships, That looks a lot. Like, um, we don't cook dinner for ourselves if it's just us, right.
Penney: Because nobody's really going to care, but we're going to go overboard and do it for the person that we care about. And maybe we serve them. Maybe we make sure they eat first. Maybe we do a lot of caretaking around that. Or we only fix foods that they like instead of foods that we like, because we want them to feel taken care of and valued.
Penney: And then when they say thank you, then we know we're valued. Right. Um, or that can look, um, sexually with us not expressing our own. Um, erotic desires or our own sexual needs, or the ways that we'd like to be touched or taken care of, but it's all about our partner and their needs and being able to have them experience. Uh, that desire in erotic feeling right. That they need to [00:08:00] feel satisfied.
Penney: It really doesn't matter what our needs are. It becomes about them. Um, and that can look like that financially. We're always paying for things or doing things for them. We're planning vacations. We're doing activities around what they like, not what we like that could even go down to movies. Television shows, right?
Penney: Where. Everything in our life becomes about the other person and not any expression of our own needs. When we're doing. Uh, couples. Uh, techniques or we do. Uh, positive need statement where we talk about expressing our needs. And so many couples, this expressing of needs is so difficult. That they feel very selfish and expressing what their needs are or they're uncomfortable expressing their needs, or they've been shamed or criticized and told that they're selfish for expressing their needs. So, this is something that you stopped doing and you just become focused on another person's needs and taking care of their needs because our needs don't matter anymore. That we really become invisible.
Penney: And this is something that can really be trained in [00:09:00] childhood. Or be reinforced in social media, in a just society in general. Around, especially in romantic relationships, that if you really love the other person, you're going to sacrifice your own needs for them. Versus showing up as your own person and being able to be a partner. We really are told that being a caretaker makes us more valuable and that's something we really have to challenge and fight.
Janae: Yeah. It becomes to a point where when we're working with couples like that, it's like, they're like, I don't know what my needs are around this. Um, yeah, they're completely. Numbed out to it, I would say, um, and the whole world becomes focused on. How are they. Caretaking their other partner.
Janae: Yeah. I also think that this comes up a lot in parent child relationships. Um, and like you said, I think that can get. And we'll set indoctrinated, but it's like, it's the. Those roles can get set early on. And if you have [00:10:00] a line of, this is just how women in my family were, or men in my family were, or whatever, like this is how. The mothers in my life act or partners in my life act like it can become very generational for sure.
Penney: I definitely think you can see that intergenerational play.
Penney: I also think you can get sucked into that as a parent and then your child's success has become your successes. And we don't ever allow them to bask in the sunlight without being like, oh yeah, because I was there for you or I drove you or aren't you glad I did that for you? That really we can't just let them shine. And, um, some of my play therapy classes as, um, we talked about even as simple as like the tie-in of the shoe, right?
Penney: If we always tie their shoe or we always help them ride their bike, or we always help them with their homework or their projects, they never really get to feel the struggle and feel the success. It's [00:11:00] always about us as parents. And it's always, oh, I'm so glad you got that. A I'm glad we did that project, or I did that project for you or you wouldn't ever be successful. Um, and that comes from a place of, we don't want to see him struggle because we don't want to see him hurt, but also we want to feel successful as parents.
Penney: And so we step into a role where it's always about us. And it's really unfortunate and really damaging for our children.
Janae: Yeah, that external validation piece could become so high. I was like, yeah.
Penney: Well, external validation for us. So, and then when the teacher gives them an a, we feel proud of our a or when the teacher says good project or, uh, we always know that they're going to have the best, whatever it is, right. Then it becomes us.
Penney: It's not about them. They don't, they don't ever get validation because the validation is always about the parent. They really do feel invisible.
Janae: And you, you see this when it goes the flip side of like, if you get a bad grade or, or when you watch sporting events and there's the parent that's [00:12:00] extremely involved in, if the team loses they're more upset than the team or. If they miss a play or something, they are. Extremely upset about it.
Janae: And
Penney: then the training begins because now our parent is emotionally upset and distraught and the child has to help the parent feel better. And I'm really sorry. I didn't make that. Or I'm going to do better next time. Uh, and it really becomes so much about the parent that the child really isn't visible.
Penney: And then if they can caretake their parent, that maybe they're going to get credit for that. And we have started the intergenerational pattern.
Penney: Again,
Janae: Yeah, I was, this is kind of a, it really. It relates a little bit of a side tangent, but, um, I was watching. A very small video clip online of Carrie Fisher being interviewed. It must've been, uh, Right before she passed, but she's getting interviewed and talking about how, when she won one of the awards in her life, she's carried guilt her whole life because she didn't give her [00:13:00] mother. I thank you.
Janae: And her acceptance speech. I've reached that interview and she's like riddled with guilt and shame. You can see all of her face and the way she talks about it. And then the interviewer replays the clip of her accepting it. And she does take her mother. And she just breaks out balling. She's like my mom.
Janae: Oh, Always held that over my head. I was like, I made you who you were. I'm not you where you were supposed to be. And you know, half of your success was because of me. And, um, and she's like, and I never thanked her and I should've thanked her. And then it was like, Oh, you did. And she's like, did a relief on her face was insane.
Janae: Um, and realizing that as we're talking about, and like, that was care-taking. Yes.
Penney: Because she was worried about her mom. Right. And her mom needed the credit and her mom needed that. It wasn't an end. It was her mom's accomplishment, not Carrie Fisher's accomplishment. Yeah, that's caretaking that start that pattern.
Penney: That was, that was that pattern. Yeah, it's interesting. Isn't it?
Janae: Yeah. Wild and made me so sad.
Penney: Yeah, absolutely. [00:14:00] Because a moment of triumph for her and what she accomplished became a moment of shame around not taking care of her mom and that she wasn't allowed. To take care of herself.
Janae: And that relationship, her mom passed.
Janae: And that was a rift between them the whole time. Yeah. And yeah,
Penney: well, because you can't ever feel someone's whole, you can be a caretaker as much as you need to, and you can try and take care of your parents' emotions or your children's emotions or your partner's emotions, but you can't fill their whole, and they can't fill yours.
Janae: Yeah.
Penney: No matter how much we take care of them.
Janae: Right. Our next section is how do you recognize caretaking from someone else in your life? So the first questions were kind of aimed about looking for that in yourself. This next section, we're going to be kind of talking about from the perspective of if it is your parent or your partner, or a friend or sibling or
Penney: coworker boss.
Janae: Yeah. I
Penney: mean, these come out of everywhere. Right? They can be anyone.
Janae: Yeah. They're your
Penney: [00:15:00] friend, your yes.
Janae: Yeah.
Penney: Um, so first one, are you seeking to control others? Do you need to control their accomplishments or even what they're trying to do, because I don't really, if I'm a caretaker, right. I don't want my child to go into a hobby that I can't help them with because I don't know how to do that. So I need to control what they do or. What project they do or what they bake or what they enjoy or who they are, because I need it to be about me, not about them. So are you wearing the clothes that I'm comfortable with?
Penney: Are you involved in the things that I can help with? Do I agree with that? Because if I'm going to caretake you, I also have to be able to do the thing to be able to be successful so that it feeds me. Um, so yeah, it becomes very controlling. So if you're feeling controlled by someone in your life, So that you can fill their whole or feed them or help them feel better.
Penney: That's a sign that somebody might be caretaking you. [00:16:00]
Janae: Yeah. And then the second one is there's an expectation that they'll get something in return. So every time you do something. Um, there's either like a verbal gratification in return or, um, some other action in return. That they then get. That validation from,
Penney: yeah. Did you notice that I cleaned your room? Uh, did you notice that I redid your report for you? Did you notice that I finished that project for you?
Penney: Um, you didn't say anything at all about X. Or you're so ungrateful, you didn't even notice Y. Right. And I think we can talk about gratitude, but not in a shaming way, but yeah. So whenever that is happening, they're looking for something in return or for you to give them something back. And it could just be verbal, but it definitely it, and I would say it's going to be like appreciation or verbal praise.
Penney: Um, Uh, but also maybe loyalty or, um,
Penney: Sometimes it can be physical or [00:17:00] emotional that like, well, you did this now you owe me. And this is what you owe me when you maybe didn't even ask them to do it. I think for me, that's probably when I'm most noticed someone is caretaking me. Is, and I, and this also, I think we've talked on here about when we were talking about, uh, appreciation that I don't like gifts.
Penney: I hate gifts. And I think this comes into this because if somebody gives me a gift that I don't enjoy, or don't like, Then I have to appreciate them. Be grateful for them, and then somehow repay them for something that I didn't even enjoy. I'm also just not good about hiding that. I don't like things.
Penney: I am grateful, but I'm also just not good about hiding things. I'm pretty just. This is how it is. And so I've run into situations where it's, uh, I appreciate your thought, but also I don't feel like I need to be grateful for being given something that I didn't want. Don't need. And now I'm expected to use or do. Right.
Penney: Like, uh,
Penney: I'm trying to think of examples of things that people have given me. And [00:18:00] then it's like the expectation is that I now enjoy this thing. Uh, one example is, uh, my partner gave me a gun for one of our anniversaries. I don't shoot, I haven't done shooting. Bow and arrow. Yes. I love archery. That's something that I enjoy.
Penney: And typically when we have gone, he shoots the guns. I shoot do archery and that's something that has always balanced, but then it was, well, I gave you this gift. Now you have something that you need to do appreciate learn. And enjoy with me. And to me that feels like a caretaking thing. Cause it's not about me.
Penney: It's about you. And I'm supposed to be appreciative and grateful for something that you gave me or it did for me when it's not something that I really enjoy, but I'm supposed to. And so that builds some resentment in me. I don't like being caretaking very well. It's something that I definitely notice. But if I was somebody that didn't, I would be grateful and make that my hobby. I do that as my thing, because somebody felt the need to control what I liked and controlled blight did.
Penney: And, and I know from him just, I can give him a moment of grace.
Penney: If he's listening to this. [00:19:00] That I think it was a hope that we could enjoy a hobby together, but again, that needs to be a conversation instead of just something that's expected.
Janae: Yeah. Yeah. Especially with bigger things.
Janae: It can feel like a really loaded
Penney: yes. Or I planned this vacation that you need to come on and enjoy when maybe you didn't want to do the vacation, but if you're somebody that's being caretaking and you're trained to do that, You go when you appreciate it and you participate in you're excited or you were the thing that was bought for you or you, right?
Penney: Like there's so many ways that people caretake us that then we feel really obligated to. Be appreciative so that they feel bad because the trick with this, and then if we don't appreciate, they feel bad, they make you feel bad. You feel that guilt, like you were talking about that with the Carrie Fisher story, right about, well, you didn't even appreciate me.
Penney: You didn't care about me. So then we give it to them as a form of control because we don't want to hurt them. We don't want them to feel sad. We want to win the game. So our parents feel good. It feels good. So that they're emotionally, they're [00:20:00] not distraught and we have to take care of them. It's a weird pattern, but it's something, it's something we get stuck in, in so many ways.
Penney: So let's see, we start to focus on problems instead of solutions. Um, so if someone is caretaking us, they are going to focus on all of our problems, everything that we do wrong, everything that needs to be fixed, everything that needs to be changed, because if there's no problems, what are they going to caretaker rests around?
Penney: Right. And they use anxiety or fear in order to keep us in a place where they have to take care of us.
Janae: Yeah. This, uh, I know we talked about in the part one about like the example of a couple. That may be one of them wants to go on a really big hike. That person is anxious or scared about them doing it.
Janae: And they're focusing on. All of the problems that might come up, if they do the event that they're going to do. And they're not focused on, Hey, it doesn't come from a place of, Hey, I have these concerns. Can [00:21:00] you talk me through, if this challenge comes up? Are you prepared to deal with it in a safe way?
Janae: And are you going to feel safe? It's. You just can't do that. It'll be too dangerous. Yeah, don't do it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Which kind of leads us into our last one. Here, there, they're less respectful of your boundaries. If, if respectful at all. I
Penney: would say typically they're not respectful of boundaries.
Penney: I think it's very much because it's about them. There are no boundaries. You become something that feeds them. You become seen something that serves them or. Makes their life easier. Better, right. And so it's not about you. So why would boundaries matter?
Janae: Yeah. And it, it comes from a place of like, if I don't get what I need from you. You don't feel whole. And then.
Janae: There's. Yeah, there's that weird?
Janae: Um, Attachment. Um,
Penney: I'm sure things just attachment right. And when we step into anxious attachment with so much of this.
Janae: Yes. [00:22:00] Yeah. And so like, you might hold the boundary of, I am. I said I was going to do this thing. I'm going to do it, or, um, And yeah, there's just no respect for, or
Penney: I'm going to write my report on my own.
Penney: I'm going to do my school project on my own. I'm going to plan my own vacation. I'm going to choose what my hobby is. I'm going to write. I mean, so much of this is a setting boundaries and depending on the level of caretaking that's happening, that could go from there emotionally distraught. Um, to they sabotage, like, I mean, it can go different places, but if you are being caretaker, Care taken by someone. You are going to fill that push of your boundaries and that need for them to somehow become involved and still make it about them, or to stop you from doing the thing. Um, this is what's coming up.
Penney: That happens. I think so often is we're heading into winter weather and winter driving that I hear so often while I would really like to go do that thing. But X [00:23:00] person doesn't think I should drive in the snow or the ice. They don't think I'm capable. So I either have to wait for them to drive me or I just don't go. Um, in, in, when you set a boundary and say, I'm going to go.
Penney: And I guess if I learned to drive in the snow or I have an accident or whatever that is, I'm going to choose to do that, that the other person, if they get really angry or really emotional or they cry, or they worry. Then we don't do it. Right. So we set the boundary, they try and violate that we have to hold it.
Penney: And I think it's a pretty simple example. Of that, or talking earlier about somebody giving you a gift. Right. I can set the boundary as I have with my partner. Like here's what I'm willing to do that, or here's how I can participate in the event. But I'm not going to manage your emotions around that.
Penney: Um, and so, um, which I don't have to do, he's very capable of doing that on his own.
Penney: It doesn't even, even about his emotions, but that if we were in a relationship where this was an issue, I would, I would feel like I needed to take care of his emotions so that he's not sad, or his hobby isn't ruined where he's not disappointed around [00:24:00] the gift that he gave me. So it really can get messy when it comes to boundaries.
Penney: And really when we stepped out of this, we have to hold boundaries and know that there's going to be maybe some. Anger, some pushback, some emotions or some sort of a situation that's going to happen that we really have to push through and plan around.
Janae: Yeah, I think this is why when we start to change those roles and we do set boundaries and keep them. Um, You can often be framed as the horrible person within your family system or the bad guy. Because it is like, Well, if you would just do this thing, they wouldn't be upset or it's your fault that they're being upset and you really are fully in charge of their whole. Emotional validation. And so. Yeah. You can get. Exiled for holding those boundaries and it can feel like.
Janae: Well, if you would [00:25:00] just let them do it. It wouldn't be a big deal. And you're doing it on purpose to hurt them. I was like, no, I'm not.
Penney: No. And I will ask, um, clients who changed the rules because somebody changed the roles, right? Because now the whole system is off balance. And always encourage them.
Penney: Is it okay to change the rules? Are you choosing to change the rules? Good. Hold it. It's okay to change the rules, but you are changing the rules. And I think if you look at. Um, any sort of a system or a good way to look at it as like a clock. That the gears all work the way they need to, but if one of them gets off, everything falls apart and a system works like that.
Penney: So if, as long as you're willing to be taken care of your caretaker feels good. The caretaker does things for you. You get to be taken care of everybody is happy. The system is working. The gears are grinding. Everything is fantastic. As soon as you stop moving as a gear, They're going to be thrown off either.
Penney: The whole system is going to fall apart. Or it's going to ground to a halt, right? And then you can choose to re-engage or [00:26:00] you can choose to change the system. And say, well, I think you've been operate in your own clock and your own gears, and I will operate in mine. And we can co-exist, but we're not going to work together in that same way.
Penney: So you're changing the rules. You're changing the system. And so it's going to get messy. And so if you hold a boundary and you realize it gets messy, really fast, might be another indicator. That the person is trying to caretake you.
Janae: Yes. Definitely. All right. And then our last question or reflection section is how are you reinforcing the caretaker behaviors with people in your life? So. As you said, this can be. Uh, very ingrained generational thing.
Janae: It can feel very normal. And so there's probably ways that if you are, when you're aware, listening to that side, last section of like, oh shoot, this is a person in my life. That's caretaking me. You might be. Uh, reinforcing those behaviors. And so it's important to recognize where you're doing that at. Um, so that you [00:27:00] can stop. And we can change the rules.
Penney: You've probably been trained to be a caretaker from the time you're a baby.
Penney: I mean, two or three you're already. Um, mommy's unhappy or daddy's unhappy or, you know, I mean, we do, we set these up, so yeah. It's very possible. This is something that's being fought reinforced. Um, and then we tend to marry what we're comfortable with, or be in a relationship with people that we're comfortable with, or maybe you didn't come from a family that way.
Penney: And then you're in a relationship like that. So first thing, allowing boundaries to be blurred. So we give in, or we allow them to take care of us in. Sometimes this happens so easy, right? Like. Well, I am second. I don't really want to have to take care of myself, or I don't really want to write that project due or write that report.
Penney: Do the project, do the things so it's okay. If I let him do this. And then it builds over time or we start to push back against boundaries and then it can be really hard and, um, really overwhelming. So we start to slip back. So we allow our [00:28:00] boundaries about what is important to us, who we are as people and what our value is to be blurred as we allow them to do more for us.
Janae: Um, I would also add to that, like allowing. Roles to be blurred of like,
Janae: The parent child relationship, who's really taking care of who. And then as they become like an adult, like the. The natural role of becoming your own person and figuring out your own mistakes. Those. Um, Differentiation. Yeah. That starts
Penney: really at about 14, 16 into adulthood. If we really pushed back, you see that with adolescents and parents all the time that we don't want them to become their own people because we no longer have value to them.
Penney: That's painful. And that's hard. Um, is that what you're talking about?
Janae: Yeah. So that gets blurred like, like the parents that still have an extreme amount of influence on the child's life when they're well [00:29:00] past. You know, those. Early years of still fledgling adults. Um,
Penney: like you're gonna be there if they ask for help and support and your job is to help teach them not to do it for them. Yeah.
Janae: And I also think like the blur of rules within the relationship with romantic relationships. You're no longer your own two separate people and partners equally supporting each other, standing on your own.
Janae: It really does become like a.
Janae: Sometimes really only, almost like a parent child relationship where it's like, the person doesn't know how to cook for themselves. They cannot function on their own as the other person is not doing everything for them. Um, and so I think that really gets those lines, get blurred of like, What's the expectation or what's quote unquote normal in a relationship. It's blurred.
Penney: Yeah, another thing that really happens.
Penney: It's interesting. Um, is then nobody also makes decisions sometimes at [00:30:00] some point, right? Because I'm taking care of you. So I need to make sure that you're happy. Well, I don't know what my needs are anymore because you've defined what my needs are. So I can't even tell you what my needs are, so you can't meet them to make me happy.
Penney: So we can't even choose a movie to go to or a TV show to watch because. I want to meet your needs. I don't know what my needs are. Well, I can't watch what you want to watch because I don't know what you want to watch. So no. No, we can't watch anything. I think he can just get so messy to where no needs are being met because we're not focusing on our own needs.
Penney: Um, instead of we're defining them for each other. Or having a defined for us and we become invisible.
Penney: So, yeah, you spent so much time and maybe a way to look at that as like you spend so much time trying to fill up the other person's needs while they take care of you that eventually you're empty, therefore they're empty and you're both empty. Because you've sucked each other dry. Right.
Janae: Yeah, for sure.
Penney: And then we move into other relationships that start to, I can caretake the neighbor. I can caretake another person at work, or I can caretake this other person. And then. Then leads to other [00:31:00] things.
Janae: So the other way you might be reinforcing caretaking behaviors with people in your life is allowing them to take care of you when you can take care of yourself.
Janae: So this. At least to obviously what we've been talking about with like, Um, allowing them to do things for you that you can do for yourself. Um,
Penney: yeah, I can drive myself in the snow. I be scary, but I can do it. I can do my own schoolwork tie my own shoe. I cook my own meals.
Janae: Yeah. And I think this comes from like, not only the fear of their emotional backlash that will happen if you set that boundary and do it yourself, but also the emotional vulnerability of having to do something yourself and maybe doing it wrong or failing.
Janae: And if this has been the role in the way it is, you probably are not very comfortable with failing. Nope. You're not comfortable with doing things on your own. Um, and doing things independently feels too scary. Sure. So you allow them to take care of you. Um, It's like how many adults? [00:32:00] Like. Don't continue learning or growing past. When they get married because, oh, well that person does all of the things that you need.
Janae: And so they can take care of me. I don't need to do. You do worry about it. I don't need to do it. Yeah.
Penney: Or if I start a new hobby or do a new thing, they'll be lonely or there'll be on their own, or there'll be sad, or they'll think that I'm having an affair or they won't think that they're important.
Penney: So we don't do things. Because we're worried about them being unhappy. I know that's the emotional backlash piece. Um, and so we don't do those things. We don't take care of ourselves. We step into that role of allowing them to take care of us.
Janae: Yeah. And you really become like. The helpless damsel or.
Penney: Or the joke about. That's right. Anything within his own house.
Penney: Like, I can never leave my wife or she can't go on vacation because they, he, they can't take care of himself. If I leave. Then I have to make all of his meals, do all of his laundry, take care of all of his stuff because he can't do it without me, [00:33:00] or I can't go with the girls for a weekend because he can't be alone. Um, and then he's helpless and can't be alone.
Penney: So he doesn't do things on his own. He doesn't learn how to do those things.
Janae: Yes. Yep.
Janae: Yep.
Penney: All right. Let's see the last one. Um, making excuses for them covering up their mistakes, shielding them from natural consequences. I know we've talked about this a little bit. Um, But we don't look for accountability. Remember we only change if things are painful, if not, we stay the same. So if somebody is always taking care of us, so we never experienced pain or uncomfort, we are never going to change, which means we are never going to grow. Um, we're going to remain reliant on someone else. And so, yeah. That is. Then we allow that to happen.
Penney: I don't want to be uncomfortable. We don't really, as humans, we're not creatures that really like to be uncomfortable. We tend to like to have things keep the status quo. We don't want to be in pain. We seek to avoid pain. [00:34:00] And so it becomes really easy for us to allow people to do this. And till we realized that not growing and not becoming our own people is also painful.
Penney: And then we have to step out of this and try and figure out how to fight the caretaker or become our own people. So yeah, that, um, we make excuses for them. Well, they didn't really mean to do that, or they're not really trying to suck the life out of me or. Um, you know, they're just having a bad day.
Penney: They're not really emotional in that way. Um, well, you know, it's okay that they're angry that I drove myself. They're just worried about me. They just really don't want me to be hurt. So it's okay for them to be emotionally distraught and upset or call me a hundred times or refuse to let me drive on my own or control me because it's really just, they care about me and they're just trying to take care of me.
Penney: Right. Yeah. And it becomes an excuse thing instead of being able to say, dude, manage your own emotions. If you're unhappy, keep it to yourself.
Janae: [00:35:00] I also, this comes back to the. The accountability piece of like the parent who loses it at the football game, it's like, They aren't having accountability for their own emotions and reactions in that, in that moment. Yeah.
Penney: They don't apologize. They don't own up. They don't change. Yup. They blame the Ruff.
Penney: They blame the coach. They blame their child. They it's everybody else with them. Yeah.
Janae: Yeah.
Penney: And then we make excuses for them. Well, you know, they just really care about how well I do. They just really want me to get into college. They're just really involved parents. They. Um, Yeah,
Janae: they didn't get to have this experience in high school.
Janae: So I, so it really matters to them. They
Penney: spent hours helping me practice. So of course they want to see me do well. We make excuses for their behavior.
Janae: Yep. All right. That'd be
Penney: totally crazy. And maybe this has happened if a child ever turned around and was like, you're embarrassing me. Stop it because I think children do feel that way.
Penney: You just don't say it. [00:36:00]
Janae: Oh, for sure. And I think that that. I'm always imagining this kind of blowing up. On that differentiation age of like early teenage hood, because you do see that. I saw that in peers growing up in high school and they rebelled so hard. And then, um, their relationship blows up. Yeah, because it is uncomfortable and it is embarrassing and they don't like it and they choose to change the role.
Janae: And then it's a big deal.
Penney: And then the paranoids from firms to fail so they can swoop in and take care of, instead of the parent learning that it's important for them to allow them to be uncomfortable and figure it out.
Penney: And
Penney: they will, and it's hard. It's hard on everyone, but it happens.
Penney: Oh, there has to be changed from both sides.
Yeah.
Penney: So tips, how do you combat the cycle and change roles? Exactly. We were talking about. So recognize that a change in roles will change your relationship. Uh, this is scary. Like we're talking about how it naturally happens in adolescents, but the parent hasn't changed.
Penney: So [00:37:00] the parent fears, losing the person that is helping them exist in the world, or feel good about themselves. Or it might end your relationship with both people on board. We talk about the system breaking. Or stopping. Um, that's scary when things are just kind of ticking along and seem easy and emotional backlash is scary and things falling apart is scary. Um, so I think just really recognizing the change will happen and we have to be okay with the change. And we have to realize it's going to get harder and scary and be okay with that because we need it to be for change, to happen for us to be healthy and for them to be healthy and for us to have a healthy relationship.
Janae: Yeah.
Janae: And if you start setting boundaries, Towards a caretaker in your life. It is most likely that you're not the only person that they are caretaking. And within your family system, they're probably not the only person that. There T caretaking. And, and so it's been so normalized within your family system or work system or whatever that, like I was saying, I think that there's a [00:38:00] high, high risk of being ostracized, um, within your system, because. It's so normalized with everyone else and they are most likely doing it to multiple people. And so you choosing to buck the system and rock the boat will. We'll really rock the boat for everyone because you're the one saying. I'm not okay with this.
Janae: Everyone else might be okay with this, but I'm not. And so I'm going to. Call for change. Yes. And unless everyone else gets on board with that. Um, there's a high likeliness that there will be damages to those relationships. And there might be, like I said, some. Some shutting out with people or killing of relationships.
Janae: Like they might just dead. And you have to.
Penney: B. Okay. Turns
Janae: with that. It's going to be a very painful thing.
Penney: Yeah. We can be really painful and really difficult, but accepting that it has to be what it is if you want change to happen. And then everybody ends up healthier if they choose to. So I think that's the [00:39:00] other part.
Penney: If we're going to set boundaries. Um, Either we're going to stop caretaking or we're going to not be caretaking. Then we have to accept that it, it could ruin the relationship. We have to be okay with that because you have to have both people willing to change in order for that relationship to move forward.
Penney: And we're talking about like the clock, the clock has to work in a different way. Um, cause it can't go back to working in the same way. So it's either going to stay broken and not function, or we're going to have to learn to work as independent gears and that's okay. It can work that way, but both people have to be willing to make that change.
Janae: All right. Um, the next tip is to recognize the patterns and roles and state vigilant. So also important to notice, like what scenarios trigger these behaviors in both of you. Um, and they can be. Small ways to happens in all relationships or they can be bigger things that are going on. Um, but just having more understanding around what are the signs and symptoms of [00:40:00] being caretake in. Being a care taker or reinforcing those behaviors and staying vigilant to, oh, we're slipping back into this old pattern. Because it can happen in such small ways. And build over time. Um,
Penney: So, yeah, it's important for us to, hopefully if you're listening to this and you're realizing this is happening in your relationships, that you have a really open, honest, vulnerable conversation with whoever it's happening with and say, Hey, I think this is happening. Uh, can we talk about how we want to set boundaries and be healthier and our relationship? If the other person is not open to that, then we're going to have to recognize the patterns and roles and stay vigilant for ourselves.
Penney: Whether that's us being a caretaker and allowing the other person to. Fail and. And then starting to take care of ourself and not take care of them. Um, but that's easy to slip into, right? If then there they've learned to be helpless and learn to not do things. We might have to really watch them [00:41:00] struggle
because
Penney: we haven't done that and maybe we need to step it back.
Penney: And that's the conversation of, I don't want to just see you. Uh, get run over by the bus, but we'll give you a tips and help you learn skills. If I have a, cause I think we have some responsibility and I didn't teach you the skills. Because I've needed to do that for myself. So now maybe I need to teach skills and step back. Um, and then if someone is caretaking you, then it's really holding boundaries and saying, no, I can do it for myself.
Penney: And even when it's uncomfortable, we still have to choose to do it for ourself.
Janae: Yes. Yeah. The next one is looking for the holes. Um, so this is like a self-reflection piece. If you're noticing that you're stepping into this caregiver rules of. What's missing within yourself. Um, can you build more of that internal validation and really rely less on external validation for your needs?
Janae: Getting met. Um, and what's your fear? What will happen if you don't take care of that person? Like they're, your fear will be, they'll leave you. [00:42:00] You'll be worthless to them. Um, that's the only way that you matter in their relationship, um, and doing some self reflection around where did those ideas come from? Why do you feel that way?
Janae: Yeah. Um, is that true?
Penney: I think the most powerful question I ask in therapy or ask myself is what am I afraid of? What's the fear? Cause that drives so many of the decisions that we make. Or don't make, so what is it that I'm afraid of? Why, what. What am I afraid of about not taking care of this person?
Penney: Or what am I afraid of? If I take care of myself?
Janae: Yeah. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. This also could be a self-reflection on is someone's caretaking you. What are you afraid of will happen within your relationship or are you afraid of being independent or failing or. Or having that emotional backlash and having to deal with it and things like that.
Janae: So,
Penney: absolutely. And then hold boundaries. That's a big tip. Once you make the boundary, whether that's a conversation that you have with your partner or parent or coworker person, whoever that relationship [00:43:00] is. Once you have the conversation you have to hold to it. Or if you don't have the conversation and you decide within yourself to hold boundaries, you have to hold them.
Penney: Whether you're the caretaker or the one that's being taken care of, once you decide stick to it, it's going to be hard. It's going to be a challenge. It's going to rock the boat, change the system, break things, do it anyway.
Janae: And just a quick reminder. A boundary is something that you were in control of, and it is something that you're responsible for. Changing an aspect of your behavior if they don't change this year.
Janae: Um, so an example of that would be if Penney and I were always in conversation and I was going to hold a boundary with her. Don't use this word around me and she used the word. It wouldn't be, you have to leave now. It's, I'm going to remove myself from this conversation now. So reminding that it's not, you cannot control the other person in their behaviors.
Janae: You are in control of yourself and how you're going to respond to that. The situation
Penney: and I think it's okay to do a reminder. Hey, remember we talked about that. See if they take [00:44:00] accountability, see if they're responsible for that. And then if they don't cause they don't take accountability, then you say, okay, I'm holding my boundary of walking away from this now.
Yeah.
Penney: That's holding those gentle boundaries with kindness and understanding. Around change and how hard that is, but also, yeah, I'm then responsible for how I react and for removing myself. Yeah. And then last one learned how about how your partner feels appreciated, because if this is there, um, like I can go back to the gift for my partner.
Penney: Right? Understanding giving gifts as a, is a sign for him. Like it's a way that he expresses himself and. Um, I can appreciate him for him trying to share a hobby with me and see it from that point, but also asking other ways that maybe he can feel appreciated or him asking me, how do you feel appreciated besides gifts, which obviously is a conversation we've had. But if we're trying to, to have true appreciation or gain. Uh, [00:45:00] care or gratitude.
Penney: We have to do that differently in the relationship besides being taken care of, of what are other ways. If I'm taking care of myself, what are other ways I can help you feel appreciated and their relationship? And if. Um, How can you help me feel appreciated in the relationship for holding boundaries and becoming my own person?
Penney: Because if my role has been to take care of you and feed your needs, Now I need you to appreciate my strength and my change and moving forward. So we really need to ask how do you feel appreciated and how can I show you appreciation and gratitude? That's outside of the emotional of that.
Penney: And we, I think we've done a. Uh, whole. Podcast right on appreciations. I'm sure we have.
Janae: I can link it. Um, Um, I'm very certain we have,
Penney: if not, we will do one, but yeah, you have to ask, don't make assumptions about how they feel appreciated. Um, but have this conversation and I do think. That this needs to be part of the change conversations, because we have to find ways for [00:46:00] gratitude and appreciation within the relationship as we're making changes, instead of feeling really empty and alone in that process.
Janae: I would also turn this around and say for the caretaker understand, other ways that you can feel appreciated outside of. You giving acts service and getting verbal validation around it.
Janae: So what are some other ways that you can cultivate appreciation between the two of you? Um, whoever it is that you're doing this with, um, that doesn't rely on those. Pieces.
Penney: So I really appreciate you taking care of yourself. I really appreciate you allowing me. So I think it can still be verbal if that's what you get, but then it's thanks for allowing me to be my own person.
Penney: Thanks for allowing me to grow. Thanks for teaching me skills, right. That then it's like, I still appreciate you and my life and as the person that you are. Um, and I appreciate that we're creating change together and growing in our own strength of it needs to be verbal, but also I think we can [00:47:00] learn about self appreciation. How do I feel that within myself, that I can say thank you for taking care of me and thank you for building me.
Penney: And thanks for climbing that mountain on your own. That, that feels really good within me. So it's a lot of different ways to fill that up as we're doing that self-reflection and having that conversation or an appreciation.
Janae: Yeah. I love that rebuild that internal self-esteem and self-confidence because yeah, if your whole identity is built around, I only matter when I'm taking care of others. That's going to be. A hard road to come back from two. To rebuild us.
Penney: So then our appreciation becomes when I climbed the mountain on my own, or I drive to wherever by myself. More, I do this thing.
Penney: If you know, whether they're caretaker or, um, being taken care of, then we're going to have a little mini party for my, um, my building of that, or my taking care of myself or my creating the challenge. And then we're excited. Around solutions and progress instead of staying stuck.
Janae: [00:48:00] Or for the caretaker, excited around every act of self care that you do for yourself. Every time that you identify your own need and take care of yourself every time that you don't.
Janae: Um,
Penney: Make dinner for everyone. Or let you choose the movie or you do right. Then everybody gets to celebrate that together. Yes.
All right. So that's the end of our part, two of this three part series. We will check back in with you next time, where we go over caregiving. So the opposite of what we've been talking about here. Um, As always, thanks for listening. And we'll catch you in our next episode. Bye.
