Ep. 38 Caretaking Vs. Caregiving Pt. 1
Episode 38: Caregiving vs. Caretaking pt.1
Janae: [00:00:00] Welcome to untangling relationships, a conversation between a counselor and a yoga teacher, a gen X-er and a millennial and a mother and daughter join us as we explore the ins and outs of relationships with your hosts, Janae and Penney. Hi and
Penney: welcome.
Janae: Welcome to our episode. We're going to be talking about the difference between caregiving and caretaking when it comes to our romantic partners. So we're going to start with just some definitions for both of those, and then we'll move through our questions and then into some tips. So Penney, do you want to start us off by giving us our definitions?
Penney: Sure. So caregiving is that being compassionate and empathetic and. Truly caring for someone and how they're doing, where we can sit in the mess with them. We can also provide some care, but the care comes from a place of empathy and kindness and genuine, um, self. As we've talked about self before being [00:01:00] in Self. Um, that I'm really connected to this person and want to see them do well or see them. Uh, feel better. And caretaking is more associated with being like a fixer or a rescuer , or we view ourselves as above the person that might be sick or above the person that needs care. And we. I don't know if it's an authority, but it's a, I have to do this or I get to do this, or I'm the only one that can do this. Or, uh, it really comes with a feeling of more, um, self sacrificing or. Over giving of yourself versus more of a compassionate giving of self. And sometimes, um, can really come from a place of like power.
Penney: I'm the only one that can do it. I'm the only one that understands. I'm the only one that knows how I will just do it. Um, a very different place.
Janae: Yeah, that rescuer piece is quite strong in that one. Yep. Okay. So with those definitions, , we can kind of start to talk about [00:02:00] how. The switch from being a care giver to being a care taker can create a little bit of a cycle or Power dynamics between the victim or the rescuer or the one that needs help and the helper or the one that needs fixing and the fixer.
Janae: However you want to. Uh, visualize that.
Penney: Sure. So you want to talk about the cycle?
Janae: Yeah,
Penney: of how I view the cycle. I would, what happens with the cycle with this is if you are a caretaker, then we go into relationships, taking care of people, right. And it becomes this idea that they can't do it without you. They can't survive without you. And also a feeling of agitation or anger towards the other person that you're required to take care of. And then what that leads to on the other side for the other person is if they are capable of taking care of themselves and they do that. [00:03:00] You're going to be offended or angry because they're not allowing you to do your job or allowing you to do your role. So that can look in some relationships like, um, um, uh, Hey, could you, I'm very capable of making my own smoothie in the morning. But I'm Mary a caretaker.
Penney: My caretaker wants to make this movie for me because that is something that they feel like is that responsibility or their job, or I will do it wrong. I will do the wrong amount of powder or I will do the wrong. Ingredients, and then it becomes, well, why don't you let me take care of you or you don't know how to do it right?
Penney: Or I will just take care of it. And then this person then might feel upset because are five minutes late to leave the house, or it makes their morning too busy, or you're not capable of doing it. So they have to do it. And as the person on the other side of that caretaker, you have a couple of choices.
Penney: You can continue to hold your boundary and have the person be angry that they're not allowed to be a caretaker for you, which is going to create conflict. You can just allow them to do it and step out and say, fine, do [00:04:00] that. And then apologize and be grateful that they chose to. To make your smoothie in the morning. Or you can have a really Frank conversation about how it's not okay.
Penney: That you're perfectly capable of taking care of things on your own. Um, but those are all gonna lead to a conflict. So then we could stuck in this pattern. Where the person is being rescued. It doesn't really want to be rescued, but feels like they have to, because if not, they have offended their partner and the caretaker comes from a position of power about how they can no more, do more and take care of this person who really doesn't need to be taken care of. And that can create a balance on the other end of that, where then the other person becomes more and more in this place of being like a helpless person and the caretaker gets more and more power from them.
Janae: Yeah.
Janae: And I think that we house a talk about the flip side of that. Um, When we were originally coming up with this topic for the podcast. Uh, we had originally talked about [00:05:00] how. This can often be. Uh, a result of emotional. Caretaking versus caregiving. Um, and almost to a point where it feels like you're. One partner is being manipulated by the other partner's emotions and then not having to take care of their own emotions or knowing how to take care of their own emotions. Um, and something that comes up around this quite often, that we see in the work that we do is. Um, One cup, one person within a couple, wanting to go out and spend time with friends or go out and, um, see the family or anything like that.
Janae: And other. Um, partner. Either doesn't want to go, or maybe it wasn't even invited. And then they have emotions about their partner leaving. Uh, and then it becomes a bit of that. Power struggle of, well, if you leave, I'm going to be upset. Um, [00:06:00] and if you stay. Then you're giving away all the. The power for that other person to regulate their own emotions and figure out how to handle their own sadness around maybe not having anything to do that evening.
Penney: Sure.
Penney: I look at this very much, um, in parenting, right? If our three-year-old really wants a candy bar at the store, and we say, Nope, you can't have a candy bar at the store. And the three-year-old hasn't. Ultimate meltdown in the middle of the store. Yeah. So choices, right. We buy them the candy bar, because we don't think they're capable of managing we're embarrassed.
Penney: We don't want people to be upset. We don't them to be upset. We start to think that we're a bad parent. All of the things that go into that, or we just let the three-year-old have their tantrum. Dry their tears know that we're there and then be able to move on and take care of themselves. And we have to do the same thing emotionally with adults.
Penney: If, if you have an adult in your life that emotionally depend on you. W they need to learn to depend on themselves and [00:07:00] they need to know that they can. And as long as we caretake and rescue, they never learned that they always learned that. You will be there to rescue and take care of them. Versus I'm an independent, strong person who can take care of myself.
Janae: Yeah.
Janae: So the caretaker might be in a position of they're the ones. Kind of repeating that pattern of wanting to do that and, and pushing there. Uh, there the right way to do something or the power onto the other partner, but they also might be putting in MPS the position of, well, I feel like this is my only option or else I'm going to get backlash and emotional backlash from this other person. Um, and so yeah, it can come from both sides and same with the, with the victimization, they can. One partner could be. Placing themselves in that role. Or they could be getting placed in that role. Um, we're going to try and balance this conversation out.
Janae: Um, we also haven't mentioned it, but we're going to do three parts to this. So, this is just an [00:08:00] introduction of the idea and the definitions, and then we're going to break down. Caretaking and they were to break down care giving. So, um, so we're going to try our best as we go through each of these parts to give examples from both sides, because we see it happening from both sides.
Janae: Um, and. So, yeah, you might recognize yourself in one versus the other, um, or recognize maybe other people in your life that you've seen. That gets trapped in this cycle. Yeah. And then
Penney: also as part of those reflections ways to get out of the cycle and ways to create strength and boundaries within the relationship so that we don't continue the caretaker cycle.
Janae: Yes, definitely.
Penney: So I want to talk a little bit more about the power dynamics that happen between the victim and rescuer. Because I think that really is an important piece about how this happens within a relationship.
Penney: I see this all the time with the couples that I work with, which is why we're having doing an episode on [00:09:00] it, because it was like a theme of the week. Um, and what I was seeing with couples and something just from my own personal relationship. That I've had to battle through and figure out without really having words necessarily for how it was battling through and figuring out.
Penney: But what I hear often with couples is, well, I really want to do X, go out, spend time with my friends, go hiking, have my own personal dreams. But my partner doesn't know how to take care of themselves. They're lonely without me B they don't have any friends themselves. They don't have any other place to go.
Penney: They'll be lonely. Um, they don't want to do things without you, as your partner. Um, they can't feed themselves. They don't know how to do X or, or then it also could become what if you get a flat tire, what if you get hurt? What if you. Encounter something scary while you're hiking. I don't know the list of, uh, what ifs, so you [00:10:00] can't do the things become such a power dynamic is it really is about power and control. If I tell you about these worries or concerns, then I have emotionally told you, I don't think you can handle yourself.
Penney: Take care of yourself. Protect yourself. Feed yourself emotionally regulate yourself. So therefore you can't do the things. I'm now in a position of power of controlling the other person around what they can do versus what they can't do. Very different than just expressing concerns, but also saying, um, you know, I'm if you get a flat tire. Do we have a plan for that?
Penney: Or do you encounter a bear? Do you know about bear awareness? Are you carrying bear spray so you can be concerned, but not concerned in a way that controls the other person. Right? Because then what we're doing is we're caretaking them and we're telling them that we know better than them, what they need to take care of themselves versus trusting them to take care of themselves. So the power dynamic around that really becomes about control. I control what you do when you do, how you do it. And, and that plays on both sides.
Penney: You can play it from the I can't. So I control you. So you [00:11:00] do the things I want, or you don't know better. So I control you from a place that I know better than you. And neither one of those are really terrible power dynamics within a relationship and leave the other person feeling frustrated. And in some ways, emotionally abandoned to be able to told this person is supposed to that unconditional positive regard and love you no matter what.
Penney: And you're the most. Fabulous person in the world, too. I think your week content can't take care of yourself. That's really defeating to see. I don't seem to
Janae: be irresponsible. I don't trust you. It did not. Get in trouble or hurt yourself or having
Penney: an affair. Or, or if you really loved me, you would, um, again, those are very manipulative power dynamics within a relationship that happen all the time.
Penney: And are not okay.
Janae: Yeah. And we've, we've seen where this power play gets taken to the extreme of if you leave or if you leave me, I will complete suicide. [00:12:00] I will hurt myself. And then you're essentially, um, manipulating and trapping the other partner. Yeah. So then the partner has to
Penney: be there to take care of you. So that those things don't happen.
Penney: Right. Yeah.
Penney: Yep. Or then the caretaker, well, in their mind, I have to leave or you might do that. And so I better just be here because I don't trust you to emotionally regulate on your own. Um, even if the other person is capable or competent or doing that, This really happens. I see this shift in therapy also when one partner gets better or changes and is less of a victim or less of a caretaker, whichever side that comes from. And then, uh, when the dynamic shifts, that's an interesting power dynamic and a power balance.
Penney: When you say, well, guess you have to figure it out from now on, because I'm not doing that for you. And that will either make or break a relationship.
Janae: Yeah, your rock, the boat, the roles that you used to play, you aren't playing anymore. Change the cycle. Change the system.
Penney: [00:13:00] Yeah. So should we jump to tips? More, we want to say around power dynamics. I think that's really a really big point. I want to make when we're talking about this, where we're really talking about power and control.
Penney: And if you look at a Duluth model of. Um, domestic violence. Um, it's about power and control. It's about power dynamics when we're talking about domestic violence. So we're really stepping into a very dangerous tipping point around some emotional abuse when we're stepping into these power dynamics with caregiving and caretaking, which is, uh, or caretaking, which is why it's, uh, such an important topic.
Penney: I wanted to talk about.
Janae: Yeah. And w you know, when we were bringing this topic up and starting to write the script for it, One of the things we both talked about is like, it can be an unconscious thing that you're doing and, uh, or it can be a very purposeful thing that you might be doing. Um, and so if you're listening to this and it feels like. Oh, this sounds familiar.
Janae: Oh, that's kind of scary. Um, that can [00:14:00] be. Assign that like there could have been, these patterns could have been set up within your family for generations. You probably were, this is probably an intergenerational pattern. Exactly. And so you might be. Unconsciously doing this, or you just think that's the norm or that's, what's been modeled for you. Um, or your partner and you might be like, what is happening?
Penney: Because these have been cloaked in gender roles. And chivalry, right?
Penney: If you're a chivalrous man. Who really wants to woo. The woman you want to. Caretake her right. Um, balance the budget, do the money. Don't let her get cold. Don't let her get wet. Don't let her encounter scary things, always be there to protect her because you can't do it herself. And for women on the other side of that with gender roles, you know, Don't ever leave home unless you've made sure they have a F all the food prepared for the weekend or. Emotionally on either side of that, the idea is that we are supposed to make sure that our partner is taken care of [00:15:00] emotionally.
Penney: And this has been set up in society for generation after generation of generation, but just something we have to break and change.
Janae: Yeah. Or the stereotype of. If they're going out all of the time with friends of the opposite sex, you know, they're going to cheat on. But yes, it must be right. Yeah. Yeah, it's another gendered. Thing that. Yeah. So I think it's a societal systemic issue. It's also, you know, intergenerational issues.
Janae: So this can come from a lot of different places and you could be consciously doing it. Cause that's the only way that you know how to get your needs met or the only way you feel valued within your relationship. Or, um, or you could be doing it on purpose cause, cause yeah, that's the only way, you know, how.
Penney: Um, or it's the way we control our partner.
Janae: Yeah. Yeah, so it can go to quite nefarious places. Yup. And then we pull our
Penney: partner because that's how we get our needs met. It's we do. We use the tools that we have. Yes. So we're hoping [00:16:00] to recognize patterns, change patterns, get new tools.
Janae: Yeah. So that's where, where you were talking about, there's kind of that tipping point of this can go to a very dangerous place.
Janae: It might start out looking more benign. Um, and it could stay in a benign place, but I think in the same. The same vein. It's still, um, It's still borderlines emotional abuse.
Penney: Yeah. And I guess I questioned that emotional and I'm not trying to, I guess, different levels or varying of that, but I think anytime we're looking at power and control dynamics, we are looking at. Abuse within a relationship.
Penney: We know that that's the model of abuse as power and control. And if we're experiencing power and control dynamics in our relationship, it's a red flag that needs to be addressed.
Janae: And
Penney: this is, these are power and control dynamics.
Janae: Definitely.
Penney: I guess the question is, how do you recognize the cycle? Pay attention? Um, are you caretaking someone?
Penney: If you do something for your partner, do you come from a place of oh, because they don't know [00:17:00] how to, um, and if they want to know how to, are we okay teaching them more? Is it really that we want to hold on to that power there? Only when the knows how to, and we're gonna, we are gonna, uh, hold that as like the sacred, precious, like don't tell them because we need to know that we're valuable in the relationship. Or do we, are we afraid to go out and do things to leave our partner home alone?
Penney: Do we hold back on our wishes and desires and dreams out of self-sacrificing place? And if we are self-sacrificing, are we stepping into more sympathy instead of empathy? I think we've defined those before on the podcast and. Um, we can cover that more. I think we're going to cover that more in the next tip.
Penney: Actually, we can talk more about that. But does it come from a place of sympathy or empathy? So we have to pay attention. Uh, to really what's happening or are you. Worried. If your partner goes out, you'll be alone and lonely and won't know how to cope. Are you. Um, Can't like, uh, oh, I can't do this.
Penney: Or I don't want to do that. And really rely on [00:18:00] our partner emotionally. Do we have other people that we go to besides our partner or they are only one and we expect them to take care of all of our emotional needs. So it's really recognition, really stepping back and looking.
Janae: I think another way you can recognize the cycle. Is, um, Almost by. I guess I have two thoughts. The first one is like, Sometimes sometimes when you tell people these. Ins and outs of your relationships, like say you're talking to your friends or family about it. And if they give you like a weird look,
Janae: Because I have been in this situation where a friend is talking to me about, you know, this happened and then I couldn't go out because they felt this way.
Janae: And I'm like, oh, That's not normal. That could be a good way of recognizing.
Penney: If you're in an encounter with me, it's probably not going to be a word luck. I'm probably going to say something. Yeah. It does a verbal vomit, like what.
Janae: Yeah. So, so another way to recognize it is to just, um, [00:19:00] listen to the people who are closer to you.
Janae: Like they might have already brought up like, Hey, this isn't normal, or, um, it's really weird that they're tracking you on their phone, or it's really weird that you have your locations turned on, um, constantly, or, you know, other things that it's like. Uh, I know I've talked to different friends about these kinds of red flags.
Janae: So if you're in a relationship like this and you have these dynamics happening, um, you might have heard. Your friends express concern. Yeah. Um, The, I think the other way to recognize it is when you see it in someone else. Um, sometimes it's harder to see within your own relationship, but you might be that person. Saying to a friend.
Janae: Oh, that's really weird. And then you're like, oh, well, that's kind of similar to something else that happens within my own relationship. So sometimes we have to be able to, to see what happens within our relationships by viewing it from an external point.
Penney: Yeah.
Janae: Get a different perspective on it.
Penney: Yeah. [00:20:00] All right.
Penney: So are you having sympathy or empathy? Sympathy? Is that I feel bad for you. I'm sorry. Versus empathy is I know what it's like to be there and the feeling versus the words to me, that's the best way to do that. Brene Brown has a great short on sympathy versus empathy. Um, that we can maybe link to the episode that I recommend.
Penney: Um, You watch and listen to, but it's really the difference between, you know, your partner is sick and you really know what it's like to be sick and not be able to breathe out your nose and be stuck in bed and feel like crap. And you feel empathy towards them from a place of understanding versus up.
Penney: Oh, I'm really sorry. You're sick. Uh, here's a cold medicine. Hopefully you get better. And it just a sub. Uh, you know, Uh, well, if you just, what if you just wouldn't have gone out in the cold of you just wouldn't have, or, you know, if you would just listen to me, we wouldn't have this problem and you wouldn't be sick or hurting right now.
Penney: Anyway. Um, so that dynamic, it's another power dynamic. If we have sympathy for people, it keeps us from having to sit [00:21:00] into the emotion and we look at ourselves as above them versus being down in the hole with them.
Janae: Yeah. It's like the weird either tiny or bigger drop of condescension within the. I feel bad. Um, I feel bad for your boom lots.
Janae: Not me. Yep. Exactly. I think this also gets into, um, righteous, indignation that can cause quite a lot of defensiveness of, well, I would never do that. And this is the right way to, to run. This is the only right way to do it. Yep. Yeah, so it's quite similar. Um, if you want to, you can go back and listen to our episodes.
Janae: I think we did two parts on that one as well about, uh, floating duck syndrome. We talk quite a lot about sympathy versus empathy in those, um, and gives the example of like, Yeah, empathy is really learning to sit in the mud with a friend or loved one. Um, instead of [00:22:00] saying, oh, I'm sorry that you're in the mud.
Penney: Yeah.
Janae: I'm sorry that this is happening to you. But I'm not willing to step into my own past experiences or my own, um, emotions that are similar to this to really be able to connect with you.
Penney: Yeah.
Janae: Um, and I think that really gets reflected in our definitions or in the words that we're using here. Caregiving versus caretaking. I think that's also quite descriptive and in, and of itself of similar of like, uh, caretaking as the empathy of like, I'm not going to give my emotions or give my whole self.
Janae: Whereas caregiving is, you're giving a part of yourself. You are giving of your whole self, I guess more. Yeah. Yeah. Um, our third tip here is, um, To recognize what are the motivations behind sharing your feelings? And kind of the sub question around that is, um, what is the timing that you're choosing to share your feelings?
Janae: So this is kind [00:23:00] of going back to that. Um, that example, or
Penney: I feel so lonely if you leave.
Janae: Yes. I
Penney: worry that you're unfaithful. I'm so worried about you going out and doing this adventure on your own. Are you doing the right before they leave? Are you doing it as they're planning or, you know, what is the timing or are you having a couples?
Penney: Check-in where you say, you know, I have some worries coming up and we problem solve around those. How are you bringing him up? And what is the timing? Is it meant to control or change a person's behavior or is it meant to give them information and understanding.
Janae: Yeah. If you're expressing a feeling of concern or fear or anxiety, Because you are concerned and feeling. And afraid.
Janae: Um, and you want to just, you know, let them know that you have these feelings and then you're not, you're not sharing it with the hope that they will. Change their actions.
Penney: And if they do they're caretaking.
Penney: Versus being able to listen and you can problem solve around it. We [00:24:00] don't control or change.
Janae: Yeah. If you're a motivation for sharing a feeling of, well, I really don't want you to go out tonight. Can't you just stay with me. Um, versus yeah, I'm feeling kind of sad. You can go out, but I think I might call someone or I'm going to do something or could you stop by and bring me a snack on your way home or something so that I feel like you're thinking of me still. And there's, you know, there's a solution.
Janae: I think there's. I think both what both of us are communicating here is that. You step from, I'm going to share the feeling to how do we either. Um, together or independently, find a solution to help with that feeling
Penney: and to manage our own emotions. What do I mean, I'm coming to you with a need and instead of coming to you and asking you to take care of a need.
Penney: And then next tip when your partner shares their emotions, what are you feeling really have to check in with that.
Penney: If your partner does say, you know, I'm [00:25:00] feeling lonely tonight, we check in with ourself. Do I feel controlled by this, but I still really want to go out. Or is it? Yeah, these plans aren't really solid. And I actually would rather spend the night with my partner and I'm doing that from a place of like empathy understanding and what I want to do.
Penney: Sure. Stay home. Or if it's. Oh, here we go again. I have to be here to take care of him. I'm worried. He'll hurt himself. I'm worried. She'll be scared alone with the lightning storm. I don't know. Like, so I'm going to self sacrifice and I'm going to be here. When I'm unhappy about it, what are the emotions that are coming up to you around the, the emotions that your partner is feeling or the emotions that you're feeling?
Penney: And are we doing it from a place of. Empathy or sympathy. Are we doing it from a place of self sacrifice? Are we doing it from a place of compassion?
Janae: Yeah, I think the, the self-sacrificing is a really big. Uh, trigger for this. Yeah. Um, and then the feeling of like [00:26:00] martyrdom of oh yeah. Um, yeah, I feel personal. You're responsible and I'm the only one that can do it. So I am going to do it. And I think this. Comes up a lot around, um, more, no women's role of being a martyr, but I get I'm sure that there's examples.
Janae: I'm just, I'm
Penney: sure for men have to work all the overtime or I. I have to take care of the yard. I mean, I think we can both get into roles of martyrdom instead of. You know, around that. And it, I think. Martyrs can come up in different places in the relationship, but around this, as that self, self sacrifice, right?
Penney: Like I'm sacrificing myself to take care of you as a martyr.
Penney: Yeah.
Penney: So I think, um, just a lot of intro around the topic and some food for thought before we get the next one out where we'll talk a lot more about what might make someone a caregiver versus a caretaker, and how do we. You know, balance both sides of that. And I think our weekly challenge, we last talked [00:27:00] about doing, um, like checking in as partners and doing your monthly.
Penney: Check-in just to challenge to do that and do that again, this time. Um, and hopefully that's going well for everyone.
Janae: Yep. Do your monthly check-ins. Um, and we will talk in our next episode about how our monthly check-ins are going.
Penney: Yeah, I think that sounds good.
Janae: Alright.
Penney: Alright, thank you. Next one. Bye.
Penney: Bye.
