Ep 28. Navigating Love and Conflict: An Analysis of Intimate Conversations
Analyzing the intricacies of relationships portrayed in reality TV offers a unique perspective on human interactions. Despite the heightened drama and external pressures, the raw emotions and relational dynamics depicted serve as a mirror to our own experiences. As viewers, we are invited to reflect on our own communication styles, conflict resolution strategies, and the importance of empathy in navigating challenging situations.
Clip from Married at First Sight Season 17 Episode 6
Continue learning from past couple's communication skills episodes
Ep 13: Mapping Your Nervous System -Flooding
Ep. 20: How to Create a Culture of Appreciation?
Janae: [00:00:00] Welcome to untangling relationships, a conversation between a counselor and a yoga teacher, a gen X-er and a millennial and a mother and daughter. Join us as we explore the ins and outs of relationships with your house, Janae and Penney. Hi and welcome. Welcome to another episode where we're going to be breaking down more. Thoughts around the six predictors of divorce.
Janae: Um, and we're hopping back into our married at first sight. Arguments. So this is season 17 episode, either five or 11, just depending on where you're watching it on. Um, and we have the couple Orion and Lauren, and this is kind of their first. Fight.
Penney: I think so. Yeah. Yeah.
Penney: Arguments that they're having.
Janae: Um, and there's some things that we want to talk about that went well in this argument of fighting fair, um, and really [00:01:00] recovering from the disagreement. And then also some things that they could be working on.
Janae: And we'll be, it'd be good for us to say, what are predictors of divorce? I don't know if we talked about that last week Did we?. On what
Janae: were going off on. Yeah, we did.
Janae: And we
Penney: can get in. Yeah. I guess we'll run down a really fast. Um, I didn't remember from last week. So first one, low commitment. Second one, the four horsemen that are. Coming up based off of, uh, Gottman's research. Um, flooding self-awareness and being able to self-sooth. Um, or offering your partner soothing also, that can go either way. Uh, attunement paying attention to body language, what is said and what is shown. And then number five is filled repair attempts or those sliding door moments where you have an opportunity to step in and stop an argument or show more attunement and care. And then six bad memories where we're not. healing from fights or for disagreements conflicts, Gutman's call it conflict.
Penney: So we're not healing from conflicts. We're just letting them build up. Um, which also plays into that trust, trust, meaning I. Uh, trust [00:02:00] they've got my back and trustworthiness meaning. That you'll put the relationship before other things. Yeah.
Janae: Yeah. So, , those are kind of what we're watching out for.
Janae: As we're watching all of the couples go through. I'll just do a quick recap again, if you didn't listen to last episode. Married at First Sight is a reality TV show where they have. Experts three experts. There's a pastor, a sex therapist and a. Is she social count psychologist, psychologist. Who. And interview a bunch of people who apply to be on the show and then they match them up.
Janae: And then the couples meet each other for the first time. At the altar, they get married, they send them on a honeymoon and then they have them eventually come back and do a few weeks at home. And then at the end of eight weeks, they choose whether they want to stay married or not.
Penney: So this episode is day two. Of their marriage day, three of their marriage. And the second day on the honeymoon. So they have the [00:03:00] wedding day. Day of travel and then this day.
Penney: Yep. Yeah, so.
Janae: so yeah, we've got five minute clip here that we're going to talk through. we'll go ahead and start it off. Okay.
Orion: What is. What's one thing you want to find out about. before this honeymoon ends
Lauren: before the honeymoon ends.
Lauren: I got a question. Okay. You ready?
Lauren: Do you use the N word?
Orion: No.
Lauren: Have you ever,
Orion: I have. Like three years. Ignorantly and singing along with songs.
Lauren: Can I punch you for my ancestors?
Orion: Yes.
Orion: Yeah. No. You know, I was, I was definitely, you know, an ignorant kid. You know, not knowing to stuff. I've had, you know, some of my own community. You know, talk to me. mostly mom. who was just like, Hey, you know, don't joke about that. And so it's what it was [00:04:00] really just a big learning process growing up.
Lauren: I think that that is okay because I've used terms that when I was younger, that I didn't even know were derogatory.
Orion: Red skin?
Lauren: No. I've never used that language, but like, yeah. I've actually never said. I don't even know what a red skin means, honestly. Oh, I do. I just look at your face.
Penney: So maybe some context Orion is sunburned. Um, so when she looks at his face, I think she might say this. Um, she talks about that. Um, but just maybe a brief, what are we seeing at this point in the conversation a minute into the five minute discussion? Uh, what are you noticing?
Janae: I really noticed that at the very beginning, when, you know, they were talking about her saying, have you ever used. The N word and then it turned very playful.
Janae: Like they found a way through that uncomfortableness. , and I think he showed up really well of in honesty and saying like, yeah, this is [00:05:00] what happened. You didn't get defensive. He answered and, and took accountability for things that has happened in his past. , And I think that that was a great start to the conversation.
Penney: Yeah, interesting watching their body language because she's very stiff when she asked the question. And then as he makes the, uh, like red skin, he's very stiff, like their body language when each one of them says, uh, the term is really. It's really interesting.
Penney: It's really telling.
Janae: Yeah, I think that these are both. Triggering heavy things for both of them. Right. They have a lot of context around. They're both of their racial backgrounds and bringing that into the marriage and like, how are they going to both handle respecting that it's an important aspect for both of them family-wise culture wise.
Janae: And so, yeah, there is a lot of. Pressure and held feelings around that. So it
makes sense.
Penney: Yep. Bringing a lot to the table. [00:06:00] Yeah.
Lauren: I didn't. I'm sorry. I'm
Lauren: sorry.
Lauren: I'm sorry, a little bit. I'm actually just looking at the fact that you're sunburned right now around your nose, but still, I shouldn't have said that, but I just actually never even knew what that meant. Sorry.
Orion: Do you want to know what it means?
Lauren: If you want to.
Penney: So think again, uh, stepping out of defensiveness, it's beautiful to see her apologizing and owning it.
Penney: And, uh, I also like her rephrasing when he says that was rough. And she said, oh, that was a little rough. I, uh, I have couples reflect a lot and it's so hard for them. It feels so unnatural and she does such a good job of it. And if you noticed earlier, um, they do that back and forth when he says out of ignorance and she says, yeah, out of ignorance and. , and I just think there's a lot of like reflecting what the other person is saying of like, oh, so you feel heard like, okay, so that was rough for you.
Penney: Tell me about that. I like the curiosity and being able to stay in curiosity that they're doing.
Janae: She does a [00:07:00] really great job of, of showing equally with her facial expression and the way that she had her inflection in her voice was like, oh, that was rough. Okay. I didn't realize that that was going to be such a misstep. But then yeah, she immediately flips it and she's like, oh, okay.
Janae: Yeah, I see. Yeah. And then she's like, yeah, I'm sorry. And immediate accountability. She doesn't go into defensiveness. She tries to explain her perspective. Of it.
Penney: And also leans in. So some of that attunement leaning into him and also reaches out and does a physical touch with him. Like, you know, Hey, I'm here.
Penney: Let's reconnect. Um, does a great job of trying to deescalate it right away. And, and really attune with him. And she does an amazing job of that. And I agree her facial expressions are really. Um, really there. That's really good. Yep.
Janae: Yeah. So when we're thinking about those six predictors. They're having an argument, right.
Janae: They're going to have done. The conflict. [00:08:00] Um, but so far they're doing pretty well. Of not having a lot of these come up.
Penney: Yeah, we haven't had any criticism come up. Yeah. No contempt. Um, I would say no horsemen. Doing really well and their body language is. Really good and they're. Both. She's doing a good job of tuning.
Penney: I think he struggling in this moment a little bit. You can see him getting stiffer and as far as repair attempts, Both of them have made repair attempts in this moment and trying to lean in tune in reflect be there. I think they're doing a really good job so far. I'm trying to build trust in. I've got your back and the relationship is important to let's talk through this.
Janae: Yeah, I think we can see him start to flood. Um, And which it might be that stiffening of the body language. Um, so yeah, we're seeing that happen. And we'll keep going to the clip and you can kind of see how he handles
Penney: that floods. Since you brought that up, I'm going to give a teaser towards the end, right?
Penney: [00:09:00] In the end, she brings this up like your body language and the way you're sitting tells me right. How you're feeling. And he says, actually, I'm just really cold. So I think it's interesting because they've been sitting in a hot tub, another sitting out in its own. Uh, rainy day in Cancun, which we've spent rainy days in Cancun. Which is funny.
Penney: This is a side note, but every time they're like, oh, its raining again. I'm like, yeah, it rains in Cancun. On and off all day. It's what it does every time I've been there. That's so, so, but he says, no, I'm just really cold. And so I think some of what we're seeing is that he's really cold and yet her interpretation, because she's trying to attune with him. Is your uncomfortable and your body language is telling me you're uncomfortable.
Penney: So I think that's interesting how some of her reaction is based off an assumption that isn't necessarily true.
Janae: Okay. That's interesting yet. And it's like, well, he, he obviously didn't want to step away.
Janae: Um, because that would probably lead to like, you're running away from the argument yeah.
Penney: So definitely it could have just slipped back into the hot tub, but they're facing each other and [00:10:00] looking at each other, making the eye contact, which I think is really important. That really, that goes back to that trustworthiness.
Penney: The relationship is more important. So I'm going to be here for this conversation. which I think is really beautiful? Yeah.
Janae: Yeah, let's keep going. Okay.
Lauren: I had to explain it.
Orion: If you'd like to know, I'll tell you yeah. So where the term came from is, you know, when colonization. Started. Um, you know, What was more valuable than gold to them? This is a scalp of an India. And so for that, when you scalp that's where that.
Lauren: That's disgusting.
Orion: Yeah.
Lauren: would you like to punch me from your ancestors.
Janae: That's a repair attempt.
Lauren: You decide whether you feel. Offended or like it was a joke curiosities.
Orion: It's it's on the delivery.
Orion: You can hear ignorance, you know, when it does come up and that's kind of what happened now, when we're headed to the airport. You know, jokes came out.
Cameron: We do [00:11:00] gotta be careful in Cancun so.
Cameron: We can't go too off the reservation.
Orion: No, you're fine.
Orion: I can hear him.
Orion: I understand. Ignorance. I'll call it for what it is, but also like, Just be ready for someone to say something.
Lauren: I think for me, like as a black woman in America, We're like the butt of jokes a lot. So i've just developed a tough skin and I'm just like sometimes it's just funny. Sometimes it's funny. Sometimes it is offensive.
Lauren: I think it's just that we've been able to find so much humor within our pain. Sure. And I think that's like maybe a difference with us. Yeah. I
Lauren: don't
Lauren: know. huh is this conversation uncomfortable for you?
Orion: No,
Lauren: no.
Lauren: I'm actually glad we had this talk I. Don't know how you feel, but
Orion: I'm a little heated.
Penney: Okay. So in that moment, um, he's identifying flooding, [00:12:00] right? At first he says, yeah. Yeah. I'm okay. I'm okay. And then I love that he steps into that vulnerability and says, no, I'm heated um, I'm uncomfortable. I'm not doing well. Yeah. And gives her a chance to decide if she's going to step into that and, and be there for him or what that's gonna look like.
Penney: Um, and that trusted their building between each other as they're a new couple new relationship. Only known each other a few days. And they're really focused on that. How do we build trust and trustworthiness? And our relationship is just so important. So I'd love the vulnerability and, uh, he could have stonewalled there and went along and we see that with the couples.
Penney: I was calling that out in the last two episodes I kept thinking. Stonewall. Almost almost all of them all Stonewall. Right. Um, and they didn't, he, he didn't, he said, Nope, this is where I'm at. Instead of hiding these feelings, I really want to call that out as an avoidance of the horsemen that he stepped into that vulnerability, which I think is really good and opposite of stonewalling.
Penney: It's being able to do that. Self-soothing. And given your [00:13:00] partner an opportunity to know where you're at, or I think they do a really good job there. Also as she's talking and he's, he's attuned to her, she's talking about what it's like to be a black woman in America and what it's like to be the butt of the joke and how she's learned to cope with that. I do think you can see a little bit of defensiveness in him in those moments when he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Instead of really saying. So the way you handle it is by learning to handle it with humor and really
Penney: I think that was a sliding door moment for him to really understand her. And her perspective as a black woman. And, um, I think that's a miss for him where he really could have understood that better because what they go into now is how they each handled those comments that are made around the pain and the racism.
Penney: And that happens to both of them around their cultures. Um, they
Janae: handle it differently and she could do. She's stepping into trying to share her inner world. Yep. He's trying to, but I think so flooded and. And like you said, he's missing that reflective piece. And [00:14:00] instead it's like, it's a little bit defensive. Of like, okay.
Janae: Yeah, you might feel that way, but I feel this way. And it's that there's no right or wrong way for either of them to handle. No, they're. Isn't that they've dealt with in their lives.
Penney: No, definitely not. So definitely a moment where there could have been more of a sliding door connection there, right.
Penney: Where he really could have stepped out of defensiveness in this moment, but he identifies and I'm feeling flooded when we're flooded. We're going to be more defensive. He's shutting down, right. We're heading down the ladder. We talk about polyvagal. Um, and so I think it's a miss where this really wouldn't have been such an amazing moment for him to say really like attune with her, right?
Penney: So this is your experience. This is your inner world. Let me understand how you handle this. And then her offering him the same thing. Um, where this is kind of a mess. I think this is where things get hokey. Maybe not hokey, but this is where things start to break down.
Penney: Yeah. Agreed.
Janae: Which is interesting. Cause I feel like a lot of other couples it's starts off into criticism and they try and work their way back. Yeah. And [00:15:00] instead they started off pretty well. And then things are working there.
Penney: Cause he's getting flooded when we're flooded, we have to end the conflict to come back to it. What we know, right. Yep.
Lauren: I'm not heated by do find some difference in how you handled me a black woman. And how you handle, um, A joke. I'm a white man.
Lauren: I do find a little, do we think that was criticism or do you think that's curiosity?
Janae: Her face,
Janae: her facial expression is showing a lot of
Penney: if we took a picture of that face and put it next to our picture of contempt, that is contempt. Yeah.
Janae: And I think it's.
Janae: I think she felt. Criticized by him. Acting that way.
Janae: Or having the reaction to her versus earlier on the bus with Cameron. Yeah. So I think that.
Janae: And then she's trying, she's trying, she's not outwardly being critical, but she is stepping [00:16:00] into. Lack of accountability. I think, I think she did well of. Having accountability at the beginning and now she's feeling more defensive. And so it's like, okay, but why are you treating me like this? When you treated someone else like this, we're on a similar thing.
Penney: Although needs to happen or we're stonewalling, right. Um, I think that that maybe a gentle startup would have been good here.
Penney: You know, I'm, I'm curious about. Um, in the situation that happened this time, it was different than the situation that happened before. I would really appreciate it being explained that to me, I think if she was able to stay in that maybe a gentle startup
Janae: or, or like, I'm feeling attacked. by your reaction to this. As opposed to your reaction to this earlier.
Janae: And, you know, we talked about this before we started recording, but really it makes sense why he's having that reaction to her because Cameron is not his partner. Cameron is not the one that's supposed to have is, goes back to trust and trustworthiness. Right? So it makes sense, but also I could [00:17:00] see from her end where that is hard of like, it's a harder load of accountability that. That you have to take when it is your partner.
Janae: Yeah.
Penney: Especially because, I mean, in the van, they'd known each other less than 24 hours as they're heading out on a honeymoon. Right. Where it's like, you're my partner and I married you, but I really don't know you. Uh, I also think this would have been a great moment for her to use one of those wish statements.
Penney: You know, what I would wish for right now is really to understand the difference between how you handled me versus how you handled. Then can you explain that? I think, um, uh, either the positive need statement or wish statement, this would be a good moment for that. Yeah.
Lauren: Different in your demeanor. With me. And you're like, your shoulders are tense. You're like clearly heated. Sure. The bus, it was just like, well, he's just ignorant.
Orion: Well, there's a difference between reservation and red skin
Lauren: that's also fair.
Lauren: That is also fair.
Lauren: I wasn't like calling you that. I think there needs to be some clarity here, though, in what. in what [00:18:00] just happened because you're still tense and you say you're heated.
Lauren: But you say. Why are you?
Orion: Because you know, there were, you know, you started to make comparisons and, you know, the way I read that as you're trying to make what you said or what came up, seem.
Orion: Less offensive than what it was.
Orion: It seemed like you tried to minimize.
Lauren: So I can see why you think I'm trying to minimize
Janae: most
Penney: validation to. Figure out.
Penney: What's okay to say in this.
Penney: Yes.
Orion: Jokes about each other's background and culture. I mean, I wouldn't deem that. Okay. I wouldn't do
Janae: that to
Penney: you. So a criticism right there. Right. Okay. No, that's fair. Right. And I think she'd have stonewalled. Yeah. She did. Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. Your facial expression. Okay, I'm done talking about it because you just feel criticized in this moment, right? Like when they need you to stay away from it.
Penney: Don't talk about that. So she feels very criticized. When in all fairness, if you were to go back and look at it, she didn't call him a red skin. Right. He said like red [00:19:00] skin, he's the one that said it. Um, Getting out of the weeds of that. I can, I can see where she's feeling defensive and she feels criticized in this moment and she stonewalled right there.
Penney: You can see it shut down. Yeah. I
Janae: would just like to say that. She did an amazing job of trying to stay in curiosity. Stay in it. And take immense amounts of accountability. Yeah. And I think she got to a breaking point of like, okay,
Penney: Thank you watch anymore. And see the switch. Instant right there. You can see it happen. Yeah.
Penney: Yeah.
Orion: pride. You know in who I am and where I come from
Lauren: and I see that and I respect that.
Orion: I would never want you to feel heated in the way that I did because I said something I wasn't aware of.
Lauren: Okay.
Orion: Would you agree?
Penney: Stonewalling right there again, her whole body language says, yep. Whatever.
Penney: So that's the end of that, um, that conflict between them.
Penney: Yeah.
Janae: Yeah, it started [00:20:00] off in a really good place, but we can kind of see where they're just not as attuned to each other. Right. We saw a sliding door moment. And maybe we're hoping that they're going to revisit this when neither of them are as flooded. And they can recover from that or else it will become another one of the predictors of divorce.
Janae: Yeah. Um, building up of bad memories, not resolving the conflict.
Penney: So what you learned in the next episode and they don't go into it, but they do talk about it. Then after this, he goes for a walk. Um, to cool down. And she chooses to sleep in a different place in the hotel room. She says upstairs, I don't, there must be separate.
Janae: They say in their suite
Janae: they're on two floors. There's two different
Penney: two floors. Yeah. So they don't sleep until she says she wakes up about 5:30 AM and realizes that. Um, she's bringing up feelings of abandonment for him, and that if she's committed to the relationship, she needs to be there to have those hard conversations.
Penney: She goes and wakes him up and they talk finished talking through it. And spend some time. And [00:21:00] your huddle and making some, uh, repair attempts as far as some physical touch and, um, uh, cuddling snuggling, I think is what they talk
Janae: about. That. I mean, that's good, but that's an extreme flip of stonewalling.
Janae: She flipped. In the end of that conversation. And then which lasted
Penney: until the next morning. Five 30. Right.
Janae: I mean, we've all done that. Sure absolutely. All relate to that. But it is interesting to watch it in real time and be like, oh, okay. Yeah. Escalated things even more right.
Penney: Yeah, it would be interesting if they had the skills.
Penney: And again, I think I brought this up last time. I would love for them to do a show where they give them the skills and then put them together because I think it would be fabulous that we work with our couples that they do with self soothe plan or. To deescalate the conflict for them to both say we're enacting the plan.
Penney: You're going to take 20 minutes. I'm going to take 20 minutes. We'll come back to it. Um, and you can't ruminate, you can't continue to think about the argument. We have to let it go and do something else to really take our mind off it and then come back. I think it could have shaved. I don't know, [00:22:00] 10, 12 hours off of this conflict that happened between the two of them. where trust was eroded instead of built. That's what
Janae: I was going to say.
Janae: It's an, it's not even the uncomfortable and horrible feelings of staying in that conflict for that amount of time, but the longer you stay in it, the trust. It gets eroded. You feel even more pressure the next time you come and do a conflict of, oh gosh, this is going to be a blow up. We're going to have, you know, a whole 12 to 24 hours of uncomfortableness and bad feelings like. And then you get more conflict adverse of like, we're not even going to step into
Penney: it. Yeah, well, the flooding happens sooner, right?
Penney: As soon as you step into it. Um, I talk with couples. So like we see each other and we're Insta flooded and trying to step back from that is so hard because those. Those memories and that trust is eroded in those memories have built up in a way that creates that, which is really sad. Yeah.
Janae: I mean, I'll, I'll reflect again on what you said of like, I do wish that obviously this is a reality TV show and they're trying to create [00:23:00] drama. Uh, or even captured. Captured the scenes in a way that makes them feel dramatic when they're really not. Um, so obviously that's the, the catch. But it. It's frustrating when we get to the point where they come back to the honeymoon and the quote unquote experts. Start to try and do interventions with them and the seasons that I've watched, some of them, the experts do actually offer good help and advice.
Janae: But most of the time it either makes things worse or it's not helpful at all. And I'm like, K, this would be so nice. Yes. If they had the skills, if they were actually getting the interventions that they need and the help that they need. I wonder how many of these could be more successful. Um, so yeah, a little bit of a. Uh, feelings of, of annoyance. Yeah.
Janae: And sadness like, you know, cause they do have. There's quite a few of the relationships that it's like, you can kind of see that they're, they're, they're trying the [00:24:00] connection Sparky is working. And then because of these conflicts and the lack of tools to work through conflicts, cause we're all gonna have conflicts things. Things start to deteriorate. Um, which is sad. And it's frustrating to watch. Or maybe, obviously it's entertaining to watch too.
Janae: That's why people watch it. But from our perspective, it's very frustrating,
Penney: especially. I think I feel less entertained and more sad to watch people go through that. And the last two episodes, like I said, there there's a lot of stonewalling people that just aren't talking about things, but there are so many beautiful moments of connection and fun and engagement in a two-minute that's happening.
Penney: As these couples are building relationships. Um, that I want to cheer for them and I want to believe in love. I think we all do.
Janae: Yeah. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. All right. Well, we'll catch you in our next episode. We'll see. How the reaction is to these episodes. So if you like them, share them, watch them.
Janae: Um, we'll kind of decide if this is something, a [00:25:00] direction that people want us to go in and we can keep analyzing these arguments.
Janae: Um, And yeah. So we'll see you in our
Penney: next one. Absolutely. We'll talk to you later.
Janae: Bye bye.
